Toothpaste worthless?

[Dazed]

I just fired off this email to the city, I'll post the reply when/if I get one.

To: askwater@toronto.ca
Subject: Toronto's Drinking Water

Hello, I have an inquiry regarding the city's drinking water.

Many sources on the internet claim that the fluoride added to drinking water for the benefit of our teeth orginates as a waste product from fertilizer and aluminum factories.

I was hoping you could confirm or deny this for me? If possible could you provide the name of the company which supplies the fluoride which goes into our tap water? Or even better, could you tell me the exact source of the fluoride? Is it dug out of the ground? Is it made in a lab? Or is it scraped from the inside of smoke stacks?

Thanks for any help.
Chris

 

[kellyb]

I just fired off this email to the city, I'll post the reply when/if I get one.

Thanks. I've been wondering about that for a while.

 

[kellyb]

Studies refute worthlessness of adding fluoride to toothpaste and water: prove casual dental protection.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm

I'm not really seeing any compelling evidence in there that fluoridated water is definitely a good thing.
It still looks pretty up in the air to me.

In the earliest days of fluoride research, investigators hypothesized that fluoride affects enamel and inhibits dental caries only when incorporated into developing dental enamel (i.e., preeruptively, before the tooth erupts into the mouth) (30,31). Evidence supports this hypothesis (32--34), but distinguishing a true preeruptive effect after teeth erupt into a mouth where topical fluoride exposure occurs regularly is difficult. However, a high fluoride concentration in sound enamel cannot alone explain the marked reduction in dental caries that fluoride produces (35,36). The prevalence of dental caries in a population is not inversely related to the concentration of fluoride in enamel (37), and a higher concentration of enamel fluoride is not necessarily more efficacious in preventing dental caries (38).

Early studies that led to the unexpected discovery that dental caries was less prevalent and severe among persons with mottled enamel (subsequently identified as a form of enamel fluorosis) were conducted before the caries-preventive effects of fluoride were known (255). In those studies, researchers did not have an a priori reason to suspect they would find either reduced or higher levels of dental caries experience in communities with low levels of mottled enamel. Researchers also had no reason to believe that patients selected where they lived according to their risk for dental caries. In that regard, these studies were randomized, and examiners were blinded.

Despite the strengths of early studies of the efficacy of naturally occurring fluoride in community drinking water, the limitations of these studies make summarizing the quality of evidence on community water fluoridation as Grade I inappropriate (Table 1). The quality of evidence from studies on the effectiveness of adjusting fluoride concentration in community water to optimal levels is Grade II-1. Research limitations are counterbalanced by broadly similar results from numerous well-conducted field studies by other investigators that included thousands of persons throughout the world (256,257).

Fluoridated water also seems to have a negative effect on bones, too.
http://www.jbmronline.org/doi/full/10.1359/jbmr.2001.16.5.932?cookieSet=1

 

[Dave1001]

I'm guessing he meant he got only one tooth filled, and that's the tooth #51.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I learned in high school that fluoride is added to water because of Colorado Brown-Spot disease. Authorities noted that all these children with brown spots on their teeth had very few cavities. The cause was found to be fluoride occurring naturally in the water the children were drinking.

Adult teeth numbers go up to 32, I have 33 but only 32 are numbered. Cavities and fillings can appear on any of the five surfaces of the tooth.

 

[Dazed]

So I got the reply from the city today. You can interpret for yourself what it means, but I think it confirms my claim.

Hello Chris,

In Toronto, a liquid chemical called hydrofluosilicic acid is added during the water treatment
process to maintain a fluoride target level of 0.6 mg/L in the tap water. Addition of all
treatment chemicals to Toronto’s drinking water is stringently controlled using modern chemical
feed equipment and rigorously monitored using state-of-the-art computer systems. The quality of
the hydrofluosilicic acid added is guaranteed by the fact that Toronto Water uses only those
chemicals that are certified to the NSF/ANSI STANDARD 60 which deals with Health Effects of
Drinking Water Treatment Chemicals. Since 1944, NSF International, an independent,
not-for-profit organization, has been committed to making the world a safer place for consumers
by certifying products and writing standards for food, water, air and consumer goods. In this
manner, regardless of whether the original source of the chemical is mineral or an industrial
byproduct, one can be assured that its addition will not result in unwanted contamination of
drinking water.

I have attached a file that shows the production process for hydrofluosilicic acid (also known
as fluorosilicic acid).

Thank you for your interest in Toronto Water.



Abhay Tadwalkar, M.Sc., P. Eng.
Manager, Operations Efficiency
Water Treatment & Supply
Toronto Water
Metro Hall, Station 1180, 18th Floor
55 John Street
Toronto, Ontario
M5V 3C6

Tel: (416) 392-2937
Fax: (416) 392-3639
Cell: (416) 936-8204
e-mail: ATadwalk@toronto.ca

I bolded the part that I believe is confirming my claim, without coming right out and saying it. (For obvious reason....)

 

[Serenity]

Well chlorhexidine gluconate mouthwash is available from any good Chemist, look for Corsodyl.

Thanks, I wasn't aware it was sold in the gel formula there until now. A prescription is necessary for legal purchase of this type product here in the U.S. Surprisingly, I found the oral rinse for sale on Ebay. My situation probably doesn't warrant its use anyway; in light of the potential side-effects.

 

[Serenity]

There is now another one out there however I note Colgate now claims their formulation is unique and it vital in ensuring the "total 12 hour protection".

Really? I’d be curious to know the name. I’ll check around when I go shopping, most likely I'll stick to the Colgate brand until independent testing prompts me to do otherwise. Thanks for the update.

Have to agree with this, however I do still tend to "scrub" my teeth - as a dentist once told me "you're meant to clean your teeth not scrub them!"

I’ve caught myself doing the same thing. Funny how such behaviors are difficult to nip. I’ve had my Braun Oral-B for several years now and there’s no looking back. I even take it with me on trips and get slightly depressed if I forget it.

 

[Serenity]

Does anyone else feel the elec TBs somehow aren't doing enough? Sometimes I tend to press a little harder than I probably should or do a little manual brushing afterwards.

PS what the heck did people do before flouride and brushing? Just have gross teeth that fell out at an early age?

I shudder at the thought of enduring a tooth extraction back then.

I’m surprised you feel the need for touch-up work with a manual brush. If you feel you’re brushing in a repetitive pattern resulting in missed spots try using the opposite hand half the time. It feels strange at first, but you’ll be surprised at how quickly the mind adapts--mental floss for the brain. I’ve become quite the ambidextrous brusher doing this.

 

[kellyb]

So I got the reply from the city today. You can interpret for yourself what it means, but I think it confirms my claim.



I bolded the part that I believe is confirming my claim, without coming right out and saying it. (For obvious reason....)

Yes, it does appear to.
What did the attached file say?

 

[richardm]

I bolded the part that I believe is confirming my claim, without coming right out and saying it. (For obvious reason....)

Well, maybe, but I think calling it "industrial waste" is probably overstating the case in a particularly emotive way. There's a thread in Politics about Marmite/Vegemite. They are both produced using byproducts of the brewing industry, but nobody would seriously say they were produced from "industrial waste". And it certainly seems a stretch from there to say that because it's a byproduct of another process it could contain lead, mercury and arsenic. Well, I daresay it could, but is there any real reason to suppose that it does as a matter of course? There's a lot of deliberately misleading information around about fluoride in water, sadly; is it possible you've come across some of it?

 

[hipparchia]

I was also going to mention Triclosan--one of the reasons I use Colgate Total 12 Hour protection toothpaste—and read the same study. Its the only toothpaste I know to contain Triclosan (.3%)… same ingredient used in all types of antibacterial products from soaps to plastics.

Yes, Colgate Total is quite good. Using a toothpaste without antibacterial ingredients may be OK, but my teeth feel mossy soon after that. With Total 12, my teeth really feel cleaner for longer.

 

[Dazed]

Yes, it does appear to.
What did the attached file say?

I wanted to paste it here but it's mostly pictures and diagrams. It does say, however, "Fluorosilicic acid is manufactured in the same chemical plants as phosphoric acid."

The issue I was trying to explore here, is where exactly the fluoride added to drinking water comes from. The reply I recieved was a lot of fluff assuring me it was safe, with no real indicator or specific claim of where it actually comes from.

From the post above, and this quote here, it seems that it could indeed be a waste product of the phosphate fertilizer industry.

Now, I recognize that in itself does not prove harmful content such as lead or mercury is present, but I cited an article above that mentions there is a problem with contamination by these elements.

The way I'm looking at it now is, most "alternative" sources I've read make 2 basic claims.
1) The fluoride is a waste product of the phosphate fertilizer industry
2) The fluoride is not pure fluoride, but a 'fluoride containing compound' which also tends to contain harmful substances like lead.

Following this exchange with the city, I think its highly probable that the first claim is true (in some cases at least), which lends weight to the second claim, but does not prove it, in and of itself.

I've no doubt that there is several sources for fluoride that are used in drinking water and it probably depends on your municipality which one you are consuming.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Did you look into where the fluoride occurring naturally in the water came from?

 

[kellyb]

Hey, Dazed...why don't you write them again and ask for the exact source of Toronto's water's fluoride.
Ask for the name of the company it's purchased by or through.