To Protect Thyself,

[RWVBWL]

I guess one has to give this guy credit for trying to off the shooters, if he in fact was armed. But when crazy people begin shooting, I would think the first to be shot would be those who are openly carrying, unless of course all madmen are also necessarily stupid.

However, what if these bad guys had instead been merely overweight teen age gun activists carrying their assault rifles proudly defending their rights in Walmart, and running to try to get out of the rain, or trying to impress the chicks? If an armed bystander felt threatened, would he be justified in shooting them? Would he be prosecuted?

Greetings Olowkow,
Thanks for the link,
I've read that newspaper many a time in years past.
Gosh, I still remember when they put a freeway in my Grandpa Eddie's backyard where I used to look for lizards and snakes amongst the tumbleweeds as a kid, err! And that my Uncle Gary drove me 10 minutes away from Grandma Marie's house to learn how to shoot a gun in the desert. The Las Vegas that I know and remember is different than the Sin City that most others know of...

Reading this in your link:
"Hector Garcia was shopping in Wal-Mart’s arts and crafts aisle toward the back of the store when he encountered a man brandishing a gun. He looked like he was in his 20s, was wearing camouflage and had a duffle bag draped over his shoulder.

He said the shooter appeared calm when he pointed the gun at him and said, “Don’t run.” The gunman, Garcia said, continued walking to the back of the store. Garcia said that store employees were evacuating customers through the back of the store.

After the gunman walked out of sight, Garcia walked out of the store. Garcia said he was shaken up and couldn’t remember what kind of gun the man carried."


I wonder of something, which is basically the whole gist of my argument.
Say the person who was walking down the isle that Hector saw was not the gunman, but instead a concerned citizen. A former military officer like my bro Steve, a surfer who served in Vietnam, who likes to periodically wear his old camies. Or maybe someone like an undercover cop, dressed in regular street clothes. "Stay calm, Don't run".

He, being armed,
was tryin' to be the hero, so to say,
and was shooting back at these 2 killers.
Warnin' an innocent to stay down. Are you gonna believe him or her?

What if Hector was armed also
and pulled out his own gun and shot the guy and killed him.
But the guy was a good guy, only tryin' to help...


I'm stoked that the guy mentioned in the article, who was ready to die, did not shoot and murder Hector when he walked towards and then past him down that aisle. I'm sure Hector's family and friends are relieved too. But what if Hector had pulled out a handgun, shot, and missed? Or instead, he killed an innocent tryin' to help? Makes you think: Do you really wanna get involved in a public shoot-out?
Peace to you all,
RW


PS-A casual friend of mine,
a gorgeous gal I've had dinner with before and hung out a few times, is a former cop from Santa Monica, California. She was involved in a shootout before just down the street from my lil sisters house when some gangsters started harassing her date as she walked around Downtown Culver City. She told them she was a cop. They came back, armed, started shooting. Christina was not shot, nor Mercedes, nor their dates. But Christina did shoot back, as did CCPD when they arrived from just down the street. The guys were arrested, I don't know any other details.

Later on,
Christina was involved in a shootout on Santa Monica Pier years ago in the early morning hours of July 4th. She was shot.
http://www.surfsantamonica.com/ssm_...4_2000_Three-Officers,_Two_Civilians_Shot.htm
If you've ever been to SM Pier on a holiday evening, you know that it's packed.
A gunfight on Santa Monica Pier on a 4th of July Holiday?

I visited Christina in the hospital.
She is now retired from police work.

Guns are dangerous and deadly.
Christina's father was killed by a gun:
http://survivor.wikia.com/wiki/Cristina_Coria

Though I don't need a gun, I still like ownin' 1.
Maybe because that next riot might happen tomorrow here in Los Angeles or that major earthquake might finally rip California in 2. Or that tsunami might finally hit or that tornando land. Oppps, that's was only in the movie "Day after Tomorrow".

I don't know why I like to own a gun, it's weird.
Maybe it's because The News Media helps induce a certain fear in their reporting,
makin' it seem like everyone is seemingly out to getcha?
Hmmmm...

Strangely,
I find that when I turn off the radio, or I stop watchin' the Live@5 news,
I'm not so worried about a mugger, or a guy with a gun who might randomly start shooting.
Heck, I'll even roll both of my Dodge Dakota's windows down and leave the door unlocked as I drive around town,
here in Los Angeles, without carryin' a gun on me!
Weird huh?!?

RW

 

[Cylinder]

What if Hector was armed also and pulled out his own gun and shot the guy and killed him. But the guy was only tryin' to help...

The Samaritan would have been dead. Had the people who provoked the use of force survived, they would be charged with felony murder. Hector's actions would have been judged by their reasonableness from Hector's own perspective of the situation -- which, using the fact set you describe, would likely have been deemed a reasonable use of deadly force in defense of himself and others. That applies to that fact set alone, though, and not the variables that will be introduced later. Those need a fresh set of eyes.

It happens occasionally that an armed store clerk shoots the person that runs into the store to evade the person outside wearing a ski mask and brandishing a firearm. The law is fairly clear that (for instance) to a reasonable person brandishing a firearm in commission of a felony makes the death of a person through justification, accident or mistake a foreseeable or likely event (statues differ, YMMV). In Arkansas as in many states, when the store clerk (or even police) shoots and kills even your accomplice in the armed c-store robbery, you get the murder charge.

What doesn't happen -- inexorably doesn't happen -- is the predicted pattern of rampant Wild West shootouts involving people legally carrying firearms and having more hero complex than ability to read contextual information.

 

[Corsair 115]

Why do you think that people feel the need "to defend himself/herself even more today than, say, thirty-five or forty years ago"?

Well, it certainly seems (note the qualifier) that there's much more talk about carrying guns for self-defence these days than there was twenty years ago. Look at the passing of such things as 'stand your ground' laws and being allowed to carry concealed weapons more widely. I don't recall it being anywhere near as much a 'thing' as it is today.

 

[fuelair]

Who would YOU shoot 1st?

The Guy or the Girl?

http://news.yahoo.com/2-officers-3-others-dead-las-vegas-shooting-232556307.html


I was at the beach today and I heard of this story on the radio.

As a gun owner,
a white guy, 1 who over 20 years ago sometimes carried a concealed handgun in public without a permit right after The Los Angeles Riots of '92, I have wondered what would happen if many in American Society were armed and able to always defend themselves in public, be it while shopping, eating out, seeing a movie, go bowling, or heading to the beach to surf a few waves...

Todays story of another tragic killing spree, done so with guns,
comes from Las Vegas, Nevada, a place where my Grandparents,
(1 of whom helped build the Hoover Dam), Mom, Dad, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins and 2 of my Sisters and Nephews live and have died.

I wonder,
bein' a Los Angeles native and gun owner,
what can be done to prevent this kind of madness?

Arm all of American Society?


Allow me to speculate for a few moments,
to let you read of my current thoughts:

You are eating pizza with friends, family, or by yourself.
Bam!
You look up: A guy started shooting.
Bam! So does a gal, from a different location.

You are armed.
To defend yourself, and/or your family.
Are you really gonna pull out you firearm and get into a public gunfight?

Who are you gonna shoot at 1st?
The guy?
The girl?

How do you,
armed, carryin' in public,
know, in a split second of realization,
who started the gunfire as you were eating your pizza?

Was it 1 deranged individual?
What if they are a team?
Like The Boston Bombers?
Or these 2 from Las Vegas today?


What about all of the of the other armed residents out there
eatin' pizza, or shopping, or dining, or watchin' that movie, or bowlin' or getin' ready to surf?

The article linked above states that there were 1000 witnesses.

Let's say that many of these folks were armed with handguns.
What if they pulled out their handguns and started returning fire to what they perceived as a threat to themselves, their friends, their lil' kids as they were out and about in public? Might there have been many more wounded, killed?

Is arming American Society the answer?

As to your primary, if they are shooting at each other and neither is claiming police and flashing a badge we get down and watch carefully. if both are firing at other people I shoot the closest, move quickly to new position and shoot the other. For unimportant reasons I know exactly how I react in fire (shooting) and related situations and that in all stress type situations time slows for me (of course, it really does not - what actually happens is my reactions are faster and better than in non-stress). It helps that I was practicing draws from holster since I was three (1949) and in 1954 had my first real life when a friend jabbed me with his pencil just under my elbow (inside left, left arm - still my only tattoo) and I had my pencil in his hand before any functional time passed. a third/half inch in his hand.

 

[fuelair]

Well, it certainly seems (note the qualifier) that there's much more talk about carrying guns for self-defence these days than there was twenty years ago. Look at the passing of such things as 'stand your ground' laws and being allowed to carry concealed weapons more widely. I don't recall it being anywhere near as much a 'thing' as it is today.

Twenty/thirty years ago and, even more 40-6o years ago it was not a big thing because more people were used to thje idea of guns in the home, hunting and related (pistols, shotguns and rifles). That's why kids in many places could bring guns to school in hunting season and leave them in their cars without any problem in much of the US. And you had your pick of guns through the mail. My favorite and the "one that got away" was in the early sixties when my brother (2 years younger) got a Carcano in the mail from Sears. In the box was a Sears ad for an anti-tank rifle - cartridges 10.oo each and the rifle $99.95. If I had had a spare $300.00.............................................

 

[fuelair]

Oh, and at that time in our - and most suburbs - you could go out and practice shooting in your back yard. Mostly we did that out in the country, but occasionally...

And you could get decent fireworks - not just the crap that passes for fireworks these days - when you were warned it could blow off a finger or two it was not an idle threat.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Most of the worst of them are intending to die in the process from the get-go. How does a more dangerous situation deter them if it's essentially suicide to begin with? Maybe it'd deter a robbery or something, but not a mass shooter or a terrorist (same thing, really). Hell, the extra challenge might be welcome, I suspect -- making it a greater achievement in the eyes of suicidal attention whores.

The ensuing chaos could even result in a shootout that has "good guys" killing more people than the instigator.

I can't but help wonder: where is this idea that the typical American citizen needs to defend himself/herself even more today than, say, thirty-five or forty years ago, coming from?

Republicans, apparently (source). Sort of.

I wonder of something, which is basically the whole gist of my argument.
Say the person who was walking down the isle that Hector saw was not the gunman, but instead a concerned citizen. A former military officer like my bro Steve, a surfer who served in Vietnam, who likes to periodically wear his old camies. Or maybe someone like an undercover cop, dressed in regular street clothes. "Stay calm, Don't run".

A military officer or cop very likely wouldn't point their weapon at you in such a situation.

 

[Autolite]

I had my pencil in his hand before any functional time passed. a third/half inch in his hand.

Oh my! Today that would put the whole school into a lock down. Was that with a standard HB pencil or the 2H 'assault' pencil.

In any case pencils need to be banned. No one 'needs' anything other than a crayon...

 

[PhantomWolf]

The trouble with going Rambo is that you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage to a shooter. They are in the position of "if it moves, shoot it", whereas you have to identify your target first. That split second can be fatal.

I recall early on when 3D shooters were just becoming a big thing we had a network game in the computer lab. One of the players was pretty good, and as an experiment we ended up playing 6 on 1. You'd think that it would have been a one sided massacre, but actually we got the rough end of the deal. Because he didn't have to bother identifying his targets, all he needed to do was see someone move and he was firing. On the other side, we had to figure out if the person we were seeing was on our team before firing, and that got us killed more often than not.

In a real life situation where you have unarmed civilians, police, and possible other "good guy" CC all wandering around that you have to distinguish from the bad guys, that time taken to decide if you're about to shoot a good guy or not may cost you your life for real.

 

[fuelair]

Oh my! Today that would put the whole school into a lock down. Was that with a standard HB pencil or the 2H 'assault' pencil.

In any case pencils need to be banned. No one 'needs' anything other than a crayon...

Actually it was that thick primary school pencil Like 1/3 to 1/2 inch thick so little fingers can hold it better. And when we did it neither of us got in trouble - which surprised but pleased us. Nowadays we would likely have been tossed out and arrested - some things have just gone to hell in a handbasket.........

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

If they're shooting at each other, attacking either of them makes me a target, not just a bystander. I have no reason to shoot either. Instead, it's in my interest to get away.

The correct answer.