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Timeless existence

lifegazer

Philosopher
Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,047
Time = change... Existence in flux.

But existence must precede the flux which occurs to it. Change is merely an effect or occurance which happens to existence, whatever It may be.
Therefore, there is a timeless existence - and change (time) is something that has been imposed upon it, by existence itself.

The point of this thread is to discuss the premise that there was an existence before the origin of time.
Hence, those that argue that "It is silly to ask what came before time", are incorrect.
Existence was, before time affected "her".
 
lifegazer said:
Hence, those that argue that "It is silly to ask what came before time", are incorrect.
Existence was, before time affected "her".
uh-huh. Existance of what exactly?
 
Things which your argument ignores:

1. Time is relative, not absolute.
2. Having existence before time violates causality. No material object can exist without some sequantial dimension to it's existence.
3. That fluctuations occur where paritcles appear our of a vaccuum is well estabvlished in the scientific community. Therefore, existence does not have to precede time.
4. Since this will inevitabley play into your argument about the existence of God, you're once again forgetting that God is a conscious being who actions must be in some kind of sequence. Hence he cannot exist outside of time.
 
Get your Hericlitus straight before you make any more of your posts. The only reason change is a timeless state is because change cannot become something else. Time is imposed on all things, regardless of what they are anyway so I don't see how that point is relevant to anything you're trying to say but failing. As for the rest of the discussion, I believe Stephen Hawkings wrote a book about that, not that it has anything to do with what you're trying to prove.
 
lifegazer

how exactly is your "pre-time existence" which by your definition, must not only be changeless, but constitute everything that exists, be able to eventually give rise to time?
 
Lifegazer:
that one is so farfetched I can't even lampoon it, maybe you should find another board to drivel on.

What would existance be like without time?

If there is no change, then how would it be existance. It would be statsis.
 
Has anyone else noticed a pattern here? Lifegazer starts a thread by spouting some pseudointellectual drivel. He gets hammered. He tries to defend himself but winds up looking even more ridiculous. He withdraws briefly. He comes back and starts a new thread by spouting some pseudointellectual drivel.

It's the circle of Lifegazer.
 
lifegazer said:
Time = change... Existence in flux.

But existence must precede the flux which occurs to it. Change is merely an effect or occurance which happens to existence, whatever It may be.
I liked these philosphical musings better when they were called episode 26 of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
 
lifegazer said:
Time = change... Existence in flux.
But existence must precede the flux which occurs to it.

Here you go with preceding time again. You make your own argument logically incoherent before it even leaves the starting gate.

Let me give you some advice to make your arguments more effective. First, find a bar or a coffee shop- the kind where random strangers regularly ask you if you have any marijuana. You will need some round spectacles, a goatee, and possibly a pipe.

Will this make your arguments any more coherent? No, but you might impress some naive young women with your air of depth and mystery. Whether or not an argument is "effective" really depends on your ultimate goal. ;)

Edited to provide you with a cautionary tale about ignorant pseudo-philosophers who take themselves too seriously:

Time Cube
 
Lifegazer got it almost right, but not quite. Here is the correct metaphysic. Read carefully now.

Existence = flux... Time in change.

But time must precede the change which occurs to it. Flux is merely an effect or occurance which happens to time, whatever It may be.
Therefore, there is a existenceless time - and flux (existence) is something that has been imposed upon it, by time itself.

~~ Paul
 
lifegazer said:
The point of this thread is to discuss the premise that there was an existence before the origin of time.
Lifegazer, Keep up the good work. I've found some corroboration for your existence before time fantasy. Right from my own family tree. Let me tell you about my mom and pop.

Gaea is one of the race of Elder Gods that were there at the founding of Creation. Gaea is the Earth Goddess. A very primordial Goddess that derived from far back in pre-history. Gaea alone conceived Uranus, who she also married and produced the Titans.

Uranus is another of the Elder race of Gods. Uranus was self- produced by Gaea. Their union produced the Titans. Uranus Is the Sky God. He was unfortunately Castrated by His son Chronos. It is thought that he withdrew in deference to Chronos.


So Earth + Sky yielded Time

I hope you bunch of godless atheists are laughing out of the other side of your mouth now. Lifegazer at least deserves the same amount of credibility as this. C'mon.

And there is something else. I've been thinking about a dream I had. In it I discovered the Dead Head Scrolls. And on page one I began to read of Lifegazer's commission. Apparently he was given a vision of Utopia and the Unity of Man. Then in a second vision he saw Armageddon. Then his God spoke to him saying, "Only one of these visions is the future of man."

'Tell me, Tell me - What would you have me do", cried Lifegazer according to the scrolls.

"You must preach of this vision. You must tell them of Me. Using only the tools of Hostility and Antagonism you must teach them of Unity among men. Using only the language of intellectualistic scientificism you must tell them who I really am. If you fail, I will unleash an Armageddon so nasty that no man, no woman, not even the little puppies will survive."

"Who are you sending me to, Oh great Omnipotent Wonderfulness to share your benificent vision of Utopia or Death. I am a slave to your will. I will be relentless" said the quivering and sniveling Lifegazer. Thus say the Scrolls.

Then in a booming voice, like the boundless boom at the crack of doom, God spoke... "You must convert the Atheists."

Laid out straight upon the scrolls were all the posts that Lifegazer would ever write. And in my dream I almost fell asleep. But I caught myself as I began to nod and opened the great scroll to the last line. There was but a single word, written in red, and it was on fire, but it was not consumed, as if it would burn forever. And it said: Boom

Does anyone interpret dreams?
 
Tricky said:
It's the circle of Lifegazer.
You missed one step in there where he forgets or ignores either his own or others' previous arguments that contradict his current argument.
 
Atlas said:

Uranus is another of the Elder race of Gods. Uranus was self- produced by Gaea. Their union produced the Titans. Uranus Is the Sky God. He was unfortunately Castrated by His son Chronos. It is thought that he withdrew in deference to Chronos.
So, what's up besides Uranus? ... Time!!!

Actually what this signified was the end of an age and a beginning of a new one ...

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33691
 
Upchurch said:

You missed one step in there where he forgets or ignores either his own or others' previous arguments that contradict his current argument.
Yes, how can a skunk convince a porcupine how to be anything but a porcupine? Oh, was that you Pepe Le Pew? ;)
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Lifegazer got it almost right, but not quite. Here is the correct metaphysic. Read carefully now.

Existence = flux... Time in change.

But time must precede the change which occurs to it. Flux is merely an effect or occurance which happens to time, whatever It may be.
Therefore, there is a existenceless time - and flux (existence) is something that has been imposed upon it, by time itself.

~~ Paul
Brilliant! Those Greeks sure have something ;).

Hans
 
Summary so far for those just joining us:

Lifegazer: "You can't hit me! You can't hit me!

Firing squad: /wham^13
 
Upchurch said:
You missed one step in there where he forgets or ignores either his own or others' previous arguments that contradict his current argument.

Almost - he'll refer to some previous thread where someone demonstrates that some instantiation of lifegazer's generic assertion that anything he fails to understand is self-evidently wrong (which includes most of maths, science, philosophy, logic and vast swathes of the english language) and claim that he conclusively dealt with that in another thread. Witness, the famous "Upchurch's question" (which I suggest we arrange a birthday part for), QM, relativity, set theory, etc and he's probably going to claim that he dealt with flatworm's proof of the incoherence of "before time" with his crushing "that's silly" riposte.
Another game, Professor Falcon?
 
lifegazer said:
Time = change... Existence in flux.

But existence must precede the flux which occurs to it. Change is merely an effect or occurance which happens to existence, whatever It may be.
Therefore, there is a timeless existence - and change (time) is something that has been imposed upon it, by existence itself.

The point of this thread is to discuss the premise that there was an existence before the origin of time.
Hence, those that argue that "It is silly to ask what came before time", are incorrect.
Existence was, before time affected "her".

Professor Kitten responds:

<blockquote>"Meow meow meow. Meow meow. Meow. Meow meow meow meow mew. Mew mew. Meow meow meow."</blockquote>
That's amazing Professor Kitten!
<blockquote>"Meow meow."</blockquote>
You're welcome, you the man Professor Kitten.
<blockquote>"Meow. Meow meow meow."</blockquote>

Oh, Professor Kitten, you and your crazy kitten sense of humor :)
 

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