• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Thought Exercise: What Would Happen if Intelligent Design Became a Real Science

"Let us assume, for the time being, that uncontroversial evidence was found, for an Intelligent Designer. "
.
I'd put that possibility as less probable than the Cambrian rabbit.
Any discussion therefore would be nothing but speculation.
 
Second of all: The settling for ignorance might not last long. I will argue that "goddidit" would actually NOT be an acceptable dismissal. "How did God do it?" would become the main question.

"By magic". Thus: end of story.

An extended answer: The question isn't even close to being as meaningful as questions based around "How did this happen naturally?", as he might as well have used magic. God may have used the movement of continents, salinity clines, and sexual selection to differentiate two species of sea slugs, or he might just have used magic, and made the world look like all those factors were involved. Finding out which it is (was) is a pointless endeavour.

I don't see a serious downside. Evolution wouldn't crumble; designer or not, it's clear that this is how most of the diversity we see today arose.

Or: it was deliberately made to look that way, and there's immediately obvious way to tell which scenario is correct in a given case.

To give a more detailed example, I will use a paper I wrote a while ago. It treated speciation in the oligochaete Lumbriculus variegatus. This species occurs in sexual and asexual populations, and the asexual populations are commonly found to be polyploid. Or, rather, populations are usually found to be polyploid and to reproduce asexually be fragmentation and subsequent regeneration. Even sexually mature individuals can do this regeneration, and that, as such, is not a sign of being polyploid or obligately asexual.

Christensen (1980) found that in tetraploid (4 sets of each chromosome (1)) populations, the production of sperm was impaired, and this, he extrapolated, might mean that individuals of higher ploidy-level may have even more defective sperm (though this was never specifically studied). Even the asexually reproducing individuals do develop their sexual organs, usually in the spring, though, but these -- as excellently shown by Mrazek (1907) -- are usually very aberrant, either lacking vital parts (2), having them distorted, or having them displaced (3).

For sexually reproducing individuals, this would be catastrophic, as they would be unable to reproduce, but for asexually reproducing ones, it is no problem, and might even be a sign of it. Free from the need for working genitals, there is no selection pressure on the genes that code for them, and thus any and all mutations that aren't harmful to the rest of the individual might conceivably remain in the population for an extended amount of time. They still get expressed, and give rise to these strange genitals, but that has no influence on the continued evolution of the population.

So far, the hypothesis holds. Lumbriculus with abnormal sexual organs are likely to be evidence of an asexually reproducing population (4), which should evolve as do asexual populations of other organisms. This commonly means a transition from diploidy to higher ploidy, with all what that entails. The pattern, across the Metazoa, is quite clear, though exceptions do exist, mainly depending on what mode of asexual reproduction is employed.

However, if we need to introduce the "the pattern may or may not also be the work of a capricious god, and have absolutely nothing to do with the evolutionary history of the population", then what is the point in finding the pattern in the first place? And: can we trust that the pattern has anything to do with reality? If we find that there is an intelligent designer, but cannot ask him questions and get answers that we can somehow know is truthful, then the pattern we find may have nothing at all to do with the actual conditions these worms are living under. It may just be that God thinks that 11-ploid cells are prettier, and thus he changes them all into that, regardless of the evolutionary history of the population.

This, in various modified forms, would be applicable to all fields of biology. We see a pattern of extinctions of flightless rails and other island endemics when Europeans start to explore the world and bring dogs, pigs, cats and rats -- all potentially natural predators of rails and/or their eggs. Is this correlated, or did God just wake up one morning and decide that he didn't really like flightless rails, and then he got rid of them, and would have done so even if Europeans had never left Europe?

The moment we find Wowbagger's evidence, whatever it may be, biology transforms from a science into a guessing game. This is, primarily, because the strings that connect theory with reality would be severed. All papers that have anything to do with evolution would have to have the disclaimer "This paper represents what things would be like if here had been no intelligent designer, and are thus not necessarily reflective of the actual conditions of the present world". I think it is somewhat naïve to think that this would not make evolution crumble or, at least, become a somewhat pointless thought exercise.

---
(1) Christensen found individuals with 11-ploid cells, which means 11 copied of each chromosome. He also reported, and I have seen this myself, individuals which had even more chromosomes, but after 180, it's too crowded to be able to count them... No upper limit is thus known.
(2) Apart from organs that produce eggs and sperms, there are also generally transportation tubes, receptive chambers, chambers for storing received sperm, glands for deposition and so on -- any or all of which may be missing.
(3) This may not seem so strange for a mammal like us, as we would survive and be able to reproduce, supposing we found a willing partner, even if our penises and vaginas were placed ten centimetres further up, on the centre of our stomachs, but in oligochaetes, the exact segments in which the genital elements occur is normally indicative of which family it belongs to, and can thus be disastrous for the reproduction of an individual who has his genitals displaced.
(4) There is likely a sexually reproducing population in Iowa, at least, and probably in the Sierra Nevada as well, though this may be genetically distinct. Probably, there are many more sexually reproducing populations around the world, but they cannot be told apart from the asexual ones on somatic characters alone. There are 13 more species in the genus, most of which may be sexually reproducing, or perhaps only local asexual ones with aberrant genitals, which is the only character that can be used to tell them apart.
 
"godidit" raises the comment that he did it very poorly, for an omnipotent guy.
Blaming all the problems of life on the vagaries of natural selection makes more sense.
With no direction involved for any changes, what we are is what comes out of our past.
If this was intended, then the intentions are totally berserk!
 
"By magic". Thus: end of story.
Evidence?

An extended answer: The question isn't even close to being as meaningful as questions based around "How did this happen naturally?", as he might as well have used magic.
Does not follow. We are probably not more than a couple of centuries away from the ability to create life ourselves. I don't expect the method we eventually find will be "magic."

The question of "how" would be no less interesting than the question of how the Romans made cement, or how ancient peoples made Stonehenge or the pyramids. Any lost technology is an interesting exercise in reverse engineering; dismissing it as "might as well be magic" is nothing but failure to engage.

God may have used the movement of continents, salinity clines, and sexual selection to differentiate two species of sea slugs, or he might just have used magic, and made the world look like all those factors were involved. Finding out which it is (was) is a pointless endeavour.
Begging the question by assuming the designer is necessarily an omnipotent god with a penchant for deceit.

To give a more detailed example, I will use a paper I wrote a while ago.
Zzzzzzzzzzz...

The moment we find Wowbagger's evidence, whatever it may be, biology transforms from a science into a guessing game.
Nope. An intelligent designer could have seeded the earth with one-celled organisms and gone on to the next star system. You're looking at the question with bible blinders on, but Yahweh is not the only possible designer.
 
"Relativity gave us nuclear power (and bombs), spaceships, and GPS, etc. Are you implying that none of these things transformed our lives, in any significant way?" (Wowbagger)

No, I'm implying that religious views, except for the most fringe versions, wouldn't necessarily impede scientific innovation. Perhaps my attitude is biased because I can't take religion seriously, and suspect that most religious people don't either. Its a game of lip-service. Even radical, fundamentalist Muslims can learn to fly a plane.
 
... Even radical, fundamentalist Muslims can learn to fly a plane.
.
Yeah, but the landings!!!! Ya gotta be able to walk away from a successful landing!
Didn't happen here!
 

Attachments

  • IranAirLanding.jpg
    IranAirLanding.jpg
    13.6 KB · Views: 2
Eh, perhaps I made this thread a little too open. Kotatsu's claims might be more likely if the Designer was an all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-present, etc. entity, such as Yahweh. And, if that's so, then I accept his claim: If there was a truly all-powerful God out there, then much of life and the Universe would be a guessing game.

But, for this thread, that's not the only game in town. The Intelligent Designer need not be Yahweh. I suspect science is more likely to keep itself rooted, in the presence of any I.D. that is anything less than all-powerful.
 
Last edited:
Science is a lot more than just a series of observations - it is also theories and explanations for those observations.
For Intelligent Design to become a science, its backers would have to produce a theory of just how The/A Designer actually did the designing. For instance, if it was accomplished via genetic manipulation, exactly what form did this manipulation take?
So far, the only answers from the IDers on this have have been various versions of "Er...um....Goddidit!".
 
Last edited:
Let us assume, for the time being, that uncontroversial evidence was found, for an Intelligent Designer. Maybe we discovered the original blue-prints of various life forms, and the labs they were created in. Maybe something even more dramatic than that: Actual communications with the Designer. Or, less dramatic, such as a label embedded in every cell, with writing that says "Designed by God, Inspected By #17".

We are not going to discuss how one would actually verify such evidence, here. For the purposes of this exercise, we are going to assume it has already been widely accepted, by most scientists, including all major evolutionary biologists, as completely legitimate.
The problem in assuming this hypothetical position is it is incompatible with our current understanding that the Universe follows consistent laws.


Either this designer set things up and watches them go, or it intervenes. If it intervenes, then science would be failing right and left assuming the interventions to be other than just letting the system evolve on its own.



Very broadly, it would completely change how we do medical research, of course. We can refer back to our blue-prints to study how diseases come about, instead of trying to estimate evolutionary pathways. We could even re-engineer life forms, to make up for flaws in the original design. Imagine something like a Human Being Version 2.0....
But we are doing that anyway. Certainly don't need a designer to actively tinker with the human genome.
 
For Intelligent Design to become a science, its backers would have to produce a theory of just how The/A Designer actually did the designing.
This exercise assumes such a theory could be constructed based on the amazing, new evidence (hypothetically) found.

So far, the only answers from the IDers on this have have been various versions of "Er...um....Goddidit!".
But, that would change, if this new evidence (as unlikely as it would be) is found.

The problem in assuming this hypothetical position is it is incompatible with our current understanding that the Universe follows consistent laws.
It could still follow consistent laws, just differently than the way we thought.

The I.D. does not need to be an "all-powerful" god. It could be something less than all powerful.

But we are doing that anyway. Certainly don't need a designer to actively tinker with the human genome.
But, we might go about it differently, and perhaps more efficiently in light of this new (hypothetical) evidence.

If we discover different drafts of different versions of humans, that would completely change the direction of such research.
 
....
It could still follow consistent laws, just differently than the way we thought.....
Either the Universe is consistent or a god intervenes making some results inconsistent because they'd be attributed to the designer.

The whole reason scientists argue a designer is outside the realm of science is, if one existed then either it set the wheels in motion and doesn't intervene, in which case such a designer would be irrelevant to scientific research, or, the designer would be mucking with things therefore laws would not be reliable.

Cab you describe a different example that fits with your scenario?
 
If some of the information about our (hypothetical) design became useful in medical research, that would certainly have some major reverberating impacts on science. Perhaps an even stronger impact than germ theory, since we are talking about a whole new realm of "reality" to deal with.


How could you count on it? Just because there may have been an original designer does not mean that the designer is involved in the day to day maintenance of the world, nor in developments that occurred after that originial creation.

Sure, it has philsophical impact; but barring any evidence of continuing supernatural influence, I would bet that science would just keep plugging along as it has. We would simply re-adopt the Renaissance view that it was all just how God wanted it ultimately but we'd still have to work out the details.
 
Scenario Change! New Thought Exercise: How would ID impact "Clearly Designed" Aliens?

I am not getting very many terribly useful answers, to this thought exercise, so far. But, I think I know what the problem is. So, I am changing the scenario, in hopes of getting more interesting results:

Imagine an alien civilization on a far away planet. They have concrete evidence that they were the products of intelligent design: They have tons of original blue-prints, they found the original labs, they found the remains of their designers, and they have a very strong documented history of interaction with their designers (which includes audio and video).

Furthermore (and this the most important point): Their own bodies seems to posses all the hallmarks of relatively good design! They have body parts that are easily detachable and replaceable; they have access panels, straps, and other things to get to those parts; they even have something akin to "part numbers" and "inspection stickers" etched into most of their organs and such.

I used the term "relatively good" because no one is perfect. Not even these Designers. There might still be the occasional design flaw or weakness that crops up in the lives of the aliens, that their own engineers have to overcome.

But, the Designers themselves might not exist anymore. As far as any of the aliens can tell, they died out centuries ago. And, furthermore, the Designers were likely not intelligently designed, themselves, but the product of natural evolutionary processes, just like us. (I mention that, to head off the "Who designed the designer?" questions.)

------------------------------------------------------

See, I suspect the key reason my original thought exercise failed, was because life, on Earth, has no such hallmarks of "relatively good" design. We have a genome that, to scientists, is clearly the result of accumulated complexity over time. And, we have a nearly-complete theory on how it could originate without intelligence. So, it becomes difficult for most of us to think it could be anything else.

(Of course, some people prefer to describe the genome as a "code" or "language", and use that analogy as a basis for proving intelligent design. But, they still lack an actual theory of origins: Who wrote the code, and how? Etc. So, I.D. is back to square one.)

By adding the idea that a fictional species of aliens has all the hallmarks I mentioned, I hope we can generate more useful answers.

So, what sorts of things do you think might happen, in such a society? Especially in its science. (Though, you can also dabble in other aspects of their lives, if you really want to.)
 
I am not getting very many terribly useful answers, to this thought exercise, so far. But, I think I know what the problem is. So, I am changing the scenario, in hopes of getting more interesting results:

Imagine an alien civilization on a far away planet. They have concrete evidence that they were the products of intelligent design: They have tons of original blue-prints, they found the original labs, they found the remains of their designers, and they have a very strong documented history of interaction with their designers (which includes audio and video).
Oh, so the Protoss found the Xel Naga? That is Starcraft III, with Starcraft II not on the shelves yet.

The answer to your new question is: Kerrigan is hot.

DR
 
Taking your scenario that evidence of intelligent design is clear, but that we have no access to the minds of the designers, then I think we're left with the scientific method again. There are parallels to engineering preservation movements, where (for example) a preserved steam locomotive is desired to deliver better performance than when new, and since it was built in 1866 there are no designers left alive. We do what we can to divine their intentions, but ultimately we have to perform experiments, draw conclusions from their results, and apply those conclusions to design modifications. The inputs are somewhat different, but the methodology is the same. So, we analyse the design and try to improve on it, instead of analysing the product of natural selection and trying to improve on it.

And, of course, design evolves, and design evolution follows similar rules to natural evolution; successful designs have a greater tendency to propagate, for a suitable definition of the word "success".

Dave
 
With the re-wording of the O.P., I've got nothing useful.

Wowbagger, I'm curious about your own take on this question.
 
Taking your scenario that evidence of intelligent design is clear, but that we have no access to the minds of the designers, then I think we're left with the scientific method again. of the word "success".

Dave
Sort of like reverse engineering computer code.
 
I am not getting very many terribly useful answers, to this thought exercise, so far. But, I think I know what the problem is. So, I am changing the scenario, in hopes of getting more interesting results:

Imagine an alien civilization on a far away planet. They have concrete evidence that they were the products of intelligent design: They have tons of original blue-prints, they found the original labs, they found the remains of their designers, and they have a very strong documented history of interaction with their designers (which includes audio and video).

Furthermore (and this the most important point): Their own bodies seems to posses all the hallmarks of relatively good design! They have body parts that are easily detachable and replaceable; they have access panels, straps, and other things to get to those parts; they even have something akin to "part numbers" and "inspection stickers" etched into most of their organs and such.

I used the term "relatively good" because no one is perfect. Not even these Designers. There might still be the occasional design flaw or weakness that crops up in the lives of the aliens, that their own engineers have to overcome.

But, the Designers themselves might not exist anymore. As far as any of the aliens can tell, they died out centuries ago. And, furthermore, the Designers were likely not intelligently designed, themselves, but the product of natural evolutionary processes, just like us. (I mention that, to head off the "Who designed the designer?" questions.)

------------------------------------------------------

See, I suspect the key reason my original thought exercise failed, was because life, on Earth, has no such hallmarks of "relatively good" design. We have a genome that, to scientists, is clearly the result of accumulated complexity over time. And, we have a nearly-complete theory on how it could originate without intelligence. So, it becomes difficult for most of us to think it could be anything else.

(Of course, some people prefer to describe the genome as a "code" or "language", and use that analogy as a basis for proving intelligent design. But, they still lack an actual theory of origins: Who wrote the code, and how? Etc. So, I.D. is back to square one.)

By adding the idea that a fictional species of aliens has all the hallmarks I mentioned, I hope we can generate more useful answers.

So, what sorts of things do you think might happen, in such a society? Especially in its science. (Though, you can also dabble in other aspects of their lives, if you really want to.)


I don't see how this would alter anything said above. I think people understand the scenario; but if natural forces are still a part of life, then science would remain unchanged. We simply wouldn't feel the need to explain "human nature" or "human design" (substitute alien nature and design if you wish).

That's why ID isn't, and can't be, a science. It is, rather, a cop out answer for something that is thought to be unexplainable.
 
I guess I ought to confess a little more:

I am asking all this because I am actually trying to develop a science fiction story, where some alien life forms are intelligently designed, and therefore I.D. is considered a serious science. (I guess it could be a piece of what you might call absurdist fiction.)

Actually, the I.D. stuff is really just the background. The main story surrounds a new form of ... technology... they happened to have developed, which is unlike anything we are used to having on Earth. I will not be getting into that technology, here, though. This thread is for developing the I.D. background.


I suspect that, at some point, all of the issues surrounding biology and design of biology would have been worked out, and so well understood, that there would be no need to conduct much research in the field, anymore. I mean, there will always be "arms-races": new forms of parasites cropping up; and new ways to deal with them will have to be developed, etc. But, the bulk of the issues are so well understood, that they tend to be a snap to deal with. And, no major new discoveries are expected to be made.

So, the aliens will have a lot more time to work on other stuff, perhaps in the field of astro-physics. Maybe they will develop new forms of space travel, that we cannot develop, yet.

Maybe they will become so far advanced, that they can develop fields of technology wholly unheard of to Earthlings.


But, before all that happens, medical science, for these aliens will probably dominate their science resources, and discoveries will be made at an accelerated rate. It took humans 10 years, or so, to map their own genome. Then, using newer technology, were able to map other genomes, such as mice, in less time. But, we are still analyzing the results, to this day!

Imagine instantly skipping over all those steps. Imagine a set of documents given to you that lays it all out: This is what this part does, this what the other is responsible for, etc; for almost every single species of life! You can move right on to the re-engineering phase, whole-hog!

That is, roughly, the equivalent of what these aliens would go through. Except, the genome would be of a different nature, and not necessarily serving as the units of selection. Something like memes would probably become the dominant replicating system. This also means they could make parts of themselves out of non-organic materials, because there would be no "selfish genes" to hold them back.

If you are familiar with the concept of Evolutionary Stable Systems (ESS), these alien entities could actually make plans to jump from one ESS directly to another, if they wanted to. Granted, humans can already do this to a limited degree, by changing their environment; but all the subtleties of all the trade-offs, and the mechanisms to do it with their own bodies, will be vastly better understood by these aliens.

I could go on, but I gotta save something for the sequel.

Forgive me if this is starting to sound like a disorganized mess. It probably is one.
 

Back
Top Bottom