Third Guantanamo Prosecturo Quits

Cleopatra,

My person experiences with the civilian court system have been uniformly bad but I have a sample of only 3. Two rejections from jury duty because I have a brain and a clearly innocent relative serially abused and eventually convicted the "justice" system. My experience with police (as a victim of crime) have not been good either. The things I read tend to confirm my opinion.

I have no direct experience with the military system but most of what I have heard or read is fairly good.

Perhaps my relative praise of the militart justice system is unfounded. Perhaps my contempt for police, prosecutors, judges and the legal system is inappropriate.

I can only go from my experience. 2 out of 2 prosecutors broke the law during procedings. 2 out of 3 judges were incompetent (one acted appropriately.) 2 out of 2 police departments acted illegally. 1 out of 1 parole officer acted illegally. 1 out of 1 "expert" witness made his living by sending innocent men to jail. It is a small sample but a convincing trend.

CBL
 
Cleopatra said:
Therefore, the Army is by definition, by structure, by nature non-democratic.
Armies have a culture, and the culture can include a sense of justice. Armies can be unashamedly brutal and authoritarian (Russian tradition), where no justice is expected, or they can be "Hard, but fair". If the institution commands more loyalty than personalities or career, and the institution values justice, democracy has an effect by percolation from its members.

You mention a "Democratic Army" as a socialist concept, but the reality appeared in the Americas during the Wars of Independence. In the American Revolution volunteers would break from work to debate the orders they'd been given, and de-select their officers if they didn't approve. It was a nightmare for professionals, and a great amusement to the French.
 
Cleopatra said:
Is there anything that can occur in the Army during a period of peace that cannot be addressed by civil justice?

Being late for work as a criminal offense.

Failing to show up for work as a criminal offense.

Failing to complete a travel itenerary as a criminal offense.

Failure to show proper respect to your boss as a criminal offense.

Failure to follow orders from your boss as a criminal offense.

Failure to report personal relationships with certain persons as a criminal offense.

Failure to report membership in certain organizations as a criminal offense.

Having sexual relationships with certain persons as a criminal offense.

Failure to dress properly for work as a criminal offense.

Making certain statements about your workplace or coworkers as a criminal offense.
 
CapelDodger said:
Armies have a culture, and the culture can include a sense of justice. Armies can be unashamedly brutal and authoritarian (Russian tradition), where no justice is expected, or they can be "Hard, but fair". If the institution commands more loyalty than personalities or career, and the institution values justice, democracy has an effect by percolation from its members.

I totally agree with that I have already told Mycroft.

quote:
Originally posted by Capel Dodger
You mention a "Democratic Army" as a socialist concept, but the reality appeared in the Americas during the Wars of Independence. In the American Revolution volunteers would break from work to debate the orders they'd been given, and de-select their officers if they didn't approve. It was a nightmare for professionals, and a great amusement to the French.


Hehe. I won't pretend that I had that in mind when I typed my previous comment, I was having in mind the modern European countries. In my ears it still echoes the voice of the late Papandreou, the monster who ruined Greece asking for a "democratic army". You see,because of the Junda, there is a slight despise of the Greeks towards the Army , Papandreou though needed their vote so, he started BSing the Universe with slogans about a "Democratic Army".

As the example that you brough demonstrates the only democratic army is the one who questions the orders but this isn't an Army anymore!

I will be around in this thread but I won't be able to contribute a lot.

CBL,you started an interesting discussion,I know that you phrased your opinion rhetorically but the questions you raised still stand.
 
Cylinder said:
Being late for work as a criminal offense.

Failing to show up for work as a criminal offense.

Failing to complete a travel itenerary as a criminal offense.

Failure to show proper respect to your boss as a criminal offense.

Failure to follow orders from your boss as a criminal offense.

Failure to report personal relationships with certain persons as a criminal offense.

Failure to report membership in certain organizations as a criminal offense.

Having sexual relationships with certain persons as a criminal offense.

Failure to dress properly for work as a criminal offense.

Making certain statements about your workplace or coworkers as a criminal offense.

My thoughts exactly. Civilian courts cannot try military servicemembers for such offenses. They don't understand them or why they are offenses.

That said, many times the military services decline to prosecute one of their servicemembers over whom they have jurisdiction under the UCMJ and allow civilian authorities to prosecute them under state law. Nevertheless, the services always retain jurisdiction to try a servicemember on active duty status under the UCMJ for any criminal offense. Under the right circumstances, a former servicemember can even be brought back onto active duty status involuntarily for the sole purpose of charging and trying him for an offense under the UCMJ.

Cleo,

The U.S. military is an authoritarian hierarchy. It is not operated as a democracy. A typical military court, however, is composed of a military judge, who is a military officer and a lawyer too, and usually a military panel (the military term for "jury"). The panel must consist of persons equal to or greater in rank than the accused. If the accused is an enlisted person, he or she has a right to have at least one third of the panel members be enlisted persons as well, although they must be non-commissioned officers.

The members of the panel each get one vote, regardless of their rank. No one on the panel may assert his or her rank during the deliberations of the panel. Indeed, no one on the panel may be within another panel member's direct chain of command. Thus, it is unlawful and a criminal offense for a colonel to order a captain to vote for or against guilt, for example. Thus, the panel itself is entirely democratic.

The judge does not tell the panel members how to vote. He is there to rule on evidentiary matters, to ensure that the trial proceeds according to the procedural rules, and to instruct the panel as to the law, and to insure the panel's verdict is lawful. The panel determines whether the accused is guilty, and if it determines he is, then there is a second phase to the trial, called the sentencing phase, during which the panel hears evidence relating to extenuating and mitigating factors surrounding the offense and the accused's background and military career. The panel then recommends an appropriate sentence. The military judge reviews the sentence, hears any objections from counsel to it, and the case is sent to the appropriate court-martial convening authority within the accused's chain of command, usually a Colonel or a General, for approval and execution of the sentence.

I have no experience whatsoever with the kind of military tribunals which are contemplating trying the enemy combatants and other prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. They are trying the accused there not under the UCMJ, but under U.S. and International Law. The UCMJ offenses do not apply to persons who are not servicemembers of the armed forces of the U.S. Those persons must be charged under applicable U.S. law or international law. The proper historical models for the trials are more likely the Nuremburg War Crimes Trials than garden variety courts-martial in the U.S.

I suspect there is much more political pressure on the prosecutors in the present Gitmo cases than in most courts-martial under the UCMJ. The world is watching these cases and The President of the United States is watching, whereas the rest of the world scarcely hears anything about the United States of America v. PFC Robert Jones, wherein PFC Jones is charged with dereliction of duty, for instance.

AS
 
CBL4 said:

...

I have no direct experience with the military system but most of what I have heard or read is fairly good.

....

CBL

I have read a lot to indicate otherwise, and I am not just talking about the US military system. Australian military justice systems have been found to be seriously lacking. The problem is, can a body regulate itself. History answers with a resounding 'no'. Hence one of the basis of modern democracy is the concept of a seperation of powers.
 
AmateurScientist said:


I have no experience whatsoever with the kind of military tribunals which are contemplating trying the enemy combatants and other prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. They are trying the accused there not under the UCMJ, but under U.S. and International Law. The UCMJ offenses do not apply to persons who are not servicemembers of the armed forces of the U.S. Those persons must be charged under applicable U.S. law or international law. The proper historical models for the trials are more likely the Nuremburg War Crimes Trials than garden variety courts-martial in the U.S.

Isn't that the point. This is something new, and it has nothing to do with established law and justice, and that is quite intentional. The creation of the powers that be is not pleasing to those who were expected to serve in it, presumably because it didn't meet the basic standards they have been trained in.
 
a_unique_person said:
The problem is, can a body regulate itself. History answers with a resounding 'no'.

You are familiar with the fact that the civilian justice system is a self-regulating system, right? We, the people, enact the laws. We, the people, choose our judicial representatives. We, the people, file criminal complaints. We, the people, decide guilt or innocence.

Let me use an embellished example to illustrate why civilians are probably not well-suited to oversee a military justice system.


During my tour at RAF Lakenheath as an E-3 in the late 80s I went out for a night of drinking with some buddies. One was a E-8 from another office in my squadron. We were fast friends and spent a considerable amount of time together. We drank the night away and danced with a group of beautiful Polish girls who introduced themselves and provided us with all the right kind of hospitality. During the course of the night, my buddy and I got into a heated argument over one of the girls at which time he called me a "degenerate *******." At that point we split up, with my buddy spending the night with the girl in question.

We showed up for work 5 minutes late the next day at which time we did not speak to each other. I would estimate my BAC at duty time around .03, though I had no outward signs of alcohol use. We spent the day very busy updating a batch of NATO target lists and mission kits for a new planning cycle. We did not speak to our supervisors about any of the nights activities.

After reading that narrative, describe for me what would be the most serious offense that occurred and try to describe the reasoning behind its seriousness. What types of punishment would you recomend?
 
Cylinder said:
You are familiar with the fact that the civilian justice system is a self-regulating system, right? We, the people, enact the laws. We, the people, choose our judicial representatives. We, the people, file criminal complaints. We, the people, decide guilt or innocence.

There is a clear seperation of powers. Voters, politicians, judiciary. Not military, militiary, military. One system has checks and balances, one doesn't. Neither system is perfect, but one has better attempts at regulation than the other.

I wish I could find it, but I can't at the moment. Some US military personell bashed and permanently injured an Australian civilian. They were allowed to leave Australia, on the basis that military justice would be tougher on them than Australian would be. They have both been freed without even a trial taking place. The victim and his family feel robbed and abused.
 
Originally posted by Cleopatra
I don't doubt that but my question remains unanswered.

Is there anything that can occur in the Army during a period of peace that cannot be addressed by civil justice?

Sure. Anything that addresses militarty law and not civilian law.

A military is not only designed to operate in a time of emergency, it's also designed to operate outside the borders of its nation. When it does so, it takes it's own law with it.

Suppose, for example, a US soldier in Germany is brought up on charges for insubordination.

It's not a crime against any German, so it wouldn't be appropriate to try it in German civilian courts. The crime didn't happen on US soil, so US civilian courts couldn't handle it. What's left?
 

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