The VP can declassify classified material.

[headscratcher4]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060216...Ow.O7is0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-

Apparently, during his interview with the Semi-official Government Fox news agency, the VP asserted that he, with Presidentialn authroization, can declassify classified material. Maybe...though the job of the VP is ill-defined, it is a plausible argument, I suppose. However, it brings up more questions, in my mind, than I suppose he wants.

1. It suggests that contrary to his public statements, Bush knew that his minions were leaking Plame's name. He would have had to authroize the declassification for it to be legal it seems to me. This is easy to find out...ask for the authoriztion to be made public.

2. But, that would mean, oh no!, Bush lied to the public about his own role. Am I missing something or did the VP not just implicate the President, and why isn't the media picking up on it?

3. Yes, maybe, the VP can declassify information...the question is, can he do so as an act of Political retribution? Again, Maybe, but it is difficult to believe that is what the law/ethics/morals and good intelligence managment would allow or call for. Indeed, it makes all agents, for example, open to the highest level of politicization...play ball with us or we'll expose you (legally, the protections you thought you had don't exist if the Prez. wants to get you...) and ruin your career.

I don't know about others here, but that strikes me as a very bad, arbitrary way to manage intelligence.

4. It really doesn nothing for Libby, I think, other than suggest that the effort to expose Plame was determined at the highest levels and CONTRARY to public statements denying any responsibility. As I understand it, Libby is charged with, essentially, lying to the Grand Jury about his role, the chronology, etc., not with having violated the intelligence act. So, Libby's determination that he was authorized to leak the name doesn't get him off the hook for lying to a Grand Jury involved in an investigation of possible wrong-doing...i.e. no wrong-doing might be there, but it is a very bad thing to lie to a prosecutor...Just ask Bill Clinton.

5. Finally, the time lag is disturbing. If the president authorized the leak or rather authorized the VP to declassify information as per needed, why not just say so at the beginning. "Joe Wilson is harming the interst of the US, his wife is part of the show, we are releasing his name -- legally because the President can order declassification.

As they say, the fish smells from the head down.

 

[Mark]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060216...Ow.O7is0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-


2. But, that would mean, oh no!, Bush lied to the public about his own role. Am I missing something or did the VP not just implicate the President, and why isn't the media picking up on it?

The media are frightened little bunnies who seldom do their job anymore.

 

[Manny]

1. It suggests that contrary to his public statements, Bush knew that his minions were leaking Plame's name. He would have had to authroize the declassification for it to be legal it seems to me. This is easy to find out...ask for the authoriztion to be made public.

An authorization to declassify something would not, as a matter of course, say something like "I, the President, authorize the Vice President to share (some specific piece of information)," if for no other reason than if it comes to that level of specificity it's easier for the President to just declassify it. Rather, the authorization will be a blanket and say things like "I, the President, authorize the Vice President to upgrade, downgrade or remove entirely the classification of such documents and other information as he believes in good faith to be necessary for the good of the nation and the execution of the nation's policies. This authorization shall not extend to (an oblique reference to really, really secret stuff like the aliens and the CIA's weather machine)..."

 

[headscratcher4]

An authorization to declassify something would not, as a matter of course, say something like "I, the President, authorize the Vice President to share (some specific piece of information)," if for no other reason than if it comes to that level of specificity it's easier for the President to just declassify it. Rather, the authorization will be a blanket and say things like "I, the President, authorize the Vice President to upgrade, downgrade or remove entirely the classification of such documents and other information as he believes in good faith to be necessary for the good of the nation and the execution of the nation's policies. This authorization shall not extend to (an oblique reference to really, really secret stuff like the aliens and the CIA's weather machine)..."

Agreed, that is possible. I wonder, however, in this instance since it would seem to be in violation of a specific law (i.e. not releasing the real names of covert agents -- the argument about whether Plame was covert or not aside) it might not in this instance need to be more specific...i.e. I authorize the declassification in this instance even though it would appear to be contrarry to the law.

Secondly, accept for the moment that the President didn't have to authorize this specific action, but just granted the VP wide latitude within the context of building the case for war. IF the presidnet didn't know that the VP had done this when he went before the public and said: no one in my Administratin did this... Shouldn't the VP have gone to the President and said, actually, I authorized this? If not, hasn't the VP put the presidnet in the position of lying to the public? And, if so, hasn't the President now knowingly mislead the public about his own post-release knowldge as well as his Administration's intention to get to the heart of leaking and punish those who may be wrong ... i.e. "G*d dammit, Dick, why'd you let me go out there and say that?"

Third, shouldn't the Presidnet now come forth and say, "ok, Dick could do that, it makes sense that he have that power, I trusted him and trust him, I just didn't know..."

Of course, it raises the question what else he doesn't know 9and books can/will be written on that topic?).

Again, Libby's problems are lying to a Grand Jury and the Proscutor (so he is accused) not legally or illegally leaking information...he is in that perverse situation of being accused of lying about something that may have been perfiectly legal (as Martha S. learned, you shouldn't lie to the Feds.).

That asisde, and again, it seems to me that the problem that Cheney has now opened the door to is that, at least from his office, this was a potientially legal, authroized campaign to get Ms. Plame to get at Mr. Wilson that the Administration for years now has denied existed.

It stinks. It is bad management. It is bad planning. It is what I've come to expext from this bunch -- they are arrogant in the extreme, and their attitude is a new version of the old "we have to destroy the village to save it.." today it is: "We have to lie to protect truth..."

 

[Manny]

All of that presupposes that Ms. Plame's name came from Cheney. That's not established. Now, Libby did say that "superiors" (of whom there aren't many) authorized him to publicize some other classified information -- specifically parts of the National Intelligence Estimate. So of course the blogosphere was going nuts last week with "SEE! Cheney released classified information! Treasonburton!!!!one!!!eleventy!!!!" In fact, if he declassified it before he authorized Libby to release it, then it of course wasn't classified and tough titties to anyone who doesn't like it.

 

[Manny]

Like this guy.

 

[headscratcher4]

All of that presupposes that Ms. Plame's name came from Cheney. That's not established. Now, Libby did say that "superiors" (of whom there aren't many) authorized him to publicize some other classified information -- specifically parts of the National Intelligence Estimate. So of course the blogosphere was going nuts last week with "SEE! Cheney released classified information! Treasonburton!!!!one!!!eleventy!!!!" In fact, if he declassified it before he authorized Libby to release it, then it of course wasn't classified and tough titties to anyone who doesn't like it.

Possibly, but that, ultimately, doesn't get Libby out of dutch. Second, there are only three superiors, Bush, Cheney and Card, as I understand it, and while it may be tough titties, as you say, to anyone who doesn't like it, it nonetheless puts the Administratin, and the President specifically, in the awkward position of having essentially fibbed to the American people...not a hard lie maybe, just a lot of smoke and mirrors at a time when the public could have used a little candor. In other words, and again, Bush came forward and said no one in his Administration did this or was authorized to do it...ooops. Well, maybe that wasn't quite true.

Unfortunatly, when you lie publically, or mistatet the facts and don't correct them (i.e. "oops, infact, the VP or Andy Card, like me, were authrorized to leak this information....") it comes back to bite your. What credibility does the President have left here?

Even if completely innocent and out of the loop...hasn't its handling of this blown what little credibility it has? Wouldn't a Grand Jury and everyting have been avoided had the President come out and said...Yes, we did it, I or my senior minions are authroized to do it, we did it because....and that's the story...." instead, you've got the VPs chief of staff indicted for telling a lie about something that might have been authroized, more distrust of the Administrtin and its motives (in a time of war, it would seem to me that you should be building trust, not tossing it away for short term political advantage...but maybe I'm old fashioned in that thought).

 

[Cylinder]

Executive Order 13292

It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to the national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure.

Pretty much what manny said.

 

[DavidJames]

Executive Order 13292



Pretty much what manny said.

if the

public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to the national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure.

really applied, why not go on TV and proudly, firmly and openly make the disclosure. Sounds like a great opportunity for them educate all of America, why the secrecy? Why are we only hearing about it now?

Enter the spin cycle here --->

 

[headscratcher4]

Executive Order 13292



Pretty much what manny said.

Possibly...yet, the VP and the Administration seemingly have used this order to punish a political critic (not to mention destroy his wife's career). So, while it may be legal, it certainly was an abuse of power. In addition, the President said that no one in his Administration was doing something like this...so, the president was eitehr lying or out of the loop...which shouldn't give you comfort. Or, the VP either lied to the President, which shouldn't give you comfort.

In the end, it doesn't matter that what the VP said may be true, or that he had the power to over-ride the law protecting Plame and declassifying her id (possible, but I am not convinced that is what such an Executive Order would allow), the fact is that they used that power for political purposes and that is simply wrong...and that they lied to cover it up (Libby lied to the Grand Jury and the Federal Prosecutors, and the President lied to the public). What about this gives you comfort?

 

[varwoche]

if the really applied, why not go on TV and proudly, firmly and openly make the disclosure. Sounds like a great opportunity for them educate all of America, why the secrecy? Why are we only hearing about it now?

Enter the spin cycle here --->

And what a spin cycle it is ... reality distorted to such a freakish extent that outing an undercover CIA agent assigned to non-proliferation is supposedly in the public interest.

 

[Manny]

Possibly...yet, the VP and the Administration seemingly have used this order to punish a political critic (not to mention destroy his wife's career).

Except that that's not been established at all. At all. People are taking unconnected facts and connecting them.

Here's what we've got as factual:

a. The Vice President can declassify information. This should register about an 8 on one's duhmeter.

b. Libby testified that superiors (widely and reasonably believed to be the Vice President) authorized him to release portions of the NIE.

c. The disclosure of b. caused angry lefties to dream once again of impeachmas because Cheney was releasing classified information.

d. What is much more likely is that Cheney declassified some previously classified information and authorized its release.

e. Notice nothing so far about Ms. Plame?

f. Libby did not testify that superiors authorized him to release Ms. Plame's name.

g. "Not" is italicized above so that it stands out.

h. No one has credibly alleged that Cheney declassified Ms. Plame's name for purposes of dissemination.

 

[headscratcher4]

Except that that's not been established at all. At all. People are taking unconnected facts and connecting them.

Here's what we've got as factual:

a. The Vice President can declassify information. This should register about an 8 on one's duhmeter.

b. Libby testified that superiors (widely and reasonably believed to be the Vice President) authorized him to release portions of the NIE.

c. The disclosure of b. caused angry lefties to dream once again of impeachmas because Cheney was releasing classified information.

d. What is much more likely is that Cheney declassified some previously classified information and authorized its release.

e. Notice nothing so far about Ms. Plame?

f. Libby did not testify that superiors authorized him to release Ms. Plame's name.

g. "Not" is italicized above so that it stands out.

h. No one has credibly alleged that Cheney declassified Ms. Plame's name for purposes of dissemination.

a. It is not immediately clear that Libby has that power...other than the President has specifically given him that power AND it covers him in this instance. If so, why didn't the Presidnet say this two years ago and nip it in the bud. Because the President didn't know? Because the President authorized it -- ie. delcassifying something to go after a critic? However, it stinks...and again, while it might be legal it is rotten. You may be comfortable with the use of power in that fashion, it scares the .... out of me.

b. I haven't suggested Libby testified that he was authorized...Libby is in trouble for lying to the Grand Jury and the prosecutor, not for leaking classified material or for legally, and selectively leaking declassified material.

C. If the material was declassified, it should have been available to all. The selective use of the material, again, points out the way that the Administration was politizing the intelligence process as it sought to justify the war. Again, if it was declassified, it raises the question of why the President and WH just didn't cut it off and own up to it...instead, they orchestrated a campaign against Wilson playing fast and loose with the security laws. NOW, that may not have been a crime, it may have been politics ans usual, but it still stinks and discredits the Administration.

d. Regardless -- and you are right, there is no indication that the VP authorized this leak/release or authorized the declassification of this informatin -- my recollection is that Libby only has three bosses here...so it was either the VP, Card or the Presidnet. A fact that, again, undermines the Presidnet's public statements on this.

Finally, nothing you've written seems to undermine the basic, troubling point that the VP has put the Presidnet in the center of this...either for authorizing it, or for covering it up. Again, maybe not a crime, but given his public statements, incredibly disengenuious.

 

[varwoche]

Except that that's not been established at all. At all. People are taking unconnected facts and connecting them.

There may be some dots missing but there are also some significant dots present.

Afterall... 1) Libby's claims to have been authorized by Cheney to leak and 2) he is charged with outing Plame.

 

[headscratcher4]

www.fas.org/blog/secrecy strikes me as a good sight for information on what the VP may be able to do.

Reading further, it seems that the VP can declassify any information generated from his office but other executive branch information only if the president has given him implicit or explicit authority to do so. It is not self-evident in Executive Order 13292 of 3/25/03 3 that this is the case here...in short there's still a whole lot of "splainin'" to do. Indeed, it is arguable that not not even the president can declassify everything except information protected by statute: e.g. certain nuclear weapons secrets, sources and methods.

 

[Cylinder]

...he is charged with outing Plame.

Libby is charged with five counts including obstruction, false statements and perjury.

 

[Cylinder]

Indeed, it is arguable that not not even the president can declassify everything except information protected by statute: e.g. certain nuclear weapons secrets, sources and methods.

The president is the supreme classification authority and can declassify whatever his discretion indicates. The best example of this power was the Cuban Missile Crisis, where JFK released near real-time U2 imagery of nuclear weapons sites.

More current examples include the declassification of Predator products of OBL's training camps for review and publication by the 9-11 Commission. In fact, any time you see gun camera footage on newscasts, you are seeing products that carried an original classification at least of SECRET.

 

[varwoche]

Libby is charged with five counts including obstruction, false statements and perjury.

Thanks for the correction for the record, however on the substance of the issue it seems highly nitpicky seeing as these charges relate to the outing of Plame (as outlined in the indictment).

 

[headscratcher4]

The president is the supreme classification authority and can declassify whatever his discretion indicates. The best example of this power was the Cuban Missile Crisis, where JFK released near real-time U2 imagery of nuclear weapons sites.

More current examples include the declassification of Predator products of OBL's training camps for review and publication by the 9-11 Commission. In fact, any time you see gun camera footage on newscasts, you are seeing products that carried an original classification at least of SECRET.

Not sure I agree completely, but even so, if this material was "declassified" by the Administration, why not just come out and say it...oh, 'cause it would look like the Administration was going after a critic for polticial reasons, as opposed to how it looks now which is that hte adminitration, for political reasons went after a critic.

If there was no harm/no foul, than they should've owned up to it two years ago.

 

[Cylinder]

Thanks for the correction for the record, however on the substance of the issue it seems highly nitpicky seeing as these charges relate to the outing of Plame (as outlined in the indictment).

I apologize if that response seemed pedantic, but your post seemed to link the authorization directly with the charges. They are, in fact, not directly linked. Cheney authorized, at least by current reporting, the NIE disclosure. Libby is not charged with crimes under the Identities Act, but for obstruction and perjury.