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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

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Yes, and I'm seriously pointing out your flagrant hypocrisy. You cry foul about people treating you shabbily and being insulting and yet lay about you with insults of your own. Not to mention you seem to have a severely distorted view of what constitutes an insult. Recently for example you accused Stacy of being sexist. I'd like very much if you could point out the exact post in which Stacy was sexist.



Holding you to account for your posting history is not trolling, any more than pointing out you regularly lean on questionable sources is trolling, or pointing out that you falsely represent yourself is trolling.

Don't lie. I asked her politely to not use sexist language aimed at me, the language in question being 'stupid woman'.

Please grow up and concentrate on discussing the title of the thread.
 
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You claim the police 'coercively interrogated him'. I want to understand why they would, given there was a potential mass murderer on their hands, with hundreds of students fleeing Perugia overnight.

Do you not see the tortured logic in this? First off, there was no mass murderer on the loose, nor had anything in Perugia happened to suggest such. No one, not Mignini nor Napoleoni nor anyone suggested such.

Yet you've just outlined a reason *for* 'enhanced coercive interrogation'.

Do you ever read what you write?
 
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Methos:

What's an 'ultra-serious' opus? (Someone else asked, but I still want to know.)

'All courts' did not rule that it was a three-person attack. Hellmann ruled in acquitting the pair that it was beyond to competence of his court to express an opinion on any other, potential suspects.

Pete has been promising dire consequences for years, 'Preston, Ciolino, Moore, Fischer, Heavey, Burleigh, Hampikian, and a dozen others might find diffamazione targets.' That's the biggest yawner of his claim. But it is a laugher that Pete still vacillates with the word 'might'. Use of that word means he's right either way!

Sollecito and his shadow writer Gumbel DID NOT LOSE THEIR DIFFAMAZIONE TRIAL! Pete has predicted that S & G would offer an apology within two weeks of the end of that trial! It's been more than two weeks! Thank you Methos for the link to a story about that, from the Italian press.

As usual, you beat me to a lot of this..... you really are the Library of Congress, Wikipedia, and a law library rolled into one.

Bill, I don't know why PQ thinks Mignini's book will be an "'ultra-serious' opus". As he wrote, "We have not seen it yet", but apparently he thinks that the book wil "closely mirrors and takes much further the general thrust of this page."

I doubt that. If you ask me, PQ has no idea about what Mignini might "reveal" in his Book. What's left are only PQ's wet dreams about the books of Guede and Mignini and of course about the targets he imagines on the backs of 'Preston, Ciolino, Moore, Fischer, Heavey, Burleigh, Hampikian, and a dozen others"...

When it comes to the prediction that "S & G would offer an apology within two weeks of the end of that trial!", let's go baack to this post. The post contains the link to PQ's original prediction.

Mainframe Computer at the basement of "Supertanker Central in Seattle" says "Danke Schön" ;)
 
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Do you not see the tortured logic in this? First off, there was no mass murderer on the loose, nor had anything in Perugia happened to suggest such. No one, not Mignini nor Napoleoni nor anyone suggested such.

Yet you've just outlined a reason *for* 'enhanced coercive interrogation'.

Do you ever read what you write?

Er, you do know hundreds of people, mostly young women - including the friends of Mez - left Perugia in a hurry.

Sophie was made to stay behind. For all of the hours of grilling, phone tapping and being made to stay for questioning, Sophie never once complained.

She understood the reason police wanted to interview her.
 
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True Crimes Podcasts? I wondered what Howling Lizzie was doing, thank you.

Prosecutor Mignini saw the crime scene himself personally. He interviewed Knox in the presence of her lawyers who tried to urge her to shut up. Detectives and seasoned police know when they have got their man. The problem is in building up a case. They can tell by body language - profuse sweating, avoidance behaviour, covering up, lying - that someone is a likely suspect.
... and, of course, they never ever make any mistakes, do they?
 
I did not say they cannot. If you believe Sollecito was fitted up <snip>.


And herein lies the problem. You signally fail to grasp what happened here, and why it happened. It also speaks yet again to your wholesale ignorance on this whole subject area.

But yeah, I’ll indulge you. See if anything might finally sink in.

See: nobody - that is, neither anyone in this thread nor the Perugia police and PM in 2007 - believes/believed that Sollecito was “fitted up”*. This truly has already been explained dozens of times in this thread, including directly in your direction on several occasions, including very recently.

No: the police & PM had come to the sincere - though entirely erroneous - conclusion that Knox had been intimately involved in the murder. In fact, we can be almost certain that by the early evening of 5th November, thanks to their clumsy misinterpretation of Knox’s cellphone call logs, they believed Knox had met up with a male - whom they may or may not have identified as Lubumba by that point also - and gone with him to the cottage whereupon the male had sexually assaulted and murdered Kercher.

With me so far? Good.

Now, the police had a significant problem with this narrative of theirs: both Knox and Sollecito, in their statements to police between 2nd-5th November, had unwaveringly insisted that they’d spent the entire evening/night of the murder together alone in Sollecito’s apartment. The police/PM could obviously (they assumed) figure out why a factually-guilty Knox would “lie” in such a way. But - and here’s the kicker, Vixen (so pay attention) - they then rationalised that Sollecito was sharing/corroborating Knox’s “lie” out of some sort of misplaced infatuation.

Keeping up?

The police therefore devised a plan to bust apart the “lie” being told to them by both Knox and Sollecito, so that they’d end up with confessions and “solve the case” with stunning speed and guile. Now keep remembering, Vixen, that the police and PM really had convinced themselves by this point that Knox genuinely was heavily involved in the murder, and that Knox & Sollecito genuinely were lying about their whereabouts on the night of the murder.

Still following?

So………. The first plank in the police’s/PM’s strategy on the night of those 5th/6th Nov interrogations was to *ahem* “persuade” Sollecito that 1) they knew for sure that Knox was at the cottage at the time of the murder (and that consequently she was not together alone with Sollecito all that evening/night; 2) therefore they knew for sure that Sollecito was lying about the murder night in order to protect Knox; 3) now was the time for Sollecito to come clean and tell them the “truth” about his/Knox’s “true” whereabouts on the murder evening/night; and 4) if Sollecito continued with the lie, he would find himself in deep legal trouble.


And that, in a nutshell, was how it went down and why it went down. Remember, one more time, that the police/PM genuinely thought they’d solved the crime correctly. Remember also that clown de Felice crowing proudly about the ‘skill’ of the interrogators in making the two of them “buckle” and “tell (them) what they already knew to be the truth”.


Satan knows why I wasted so much of my time writing all this. Oh well: ya do what ya can to open up the eyes of the blind, right??


* And I’m going to assume that by “fitted up” you effectively mean the police were deliberately trying to frame someone whom they either knew or suspected to be innocent.
 
Er, you do know hundreds of people, mostly young women - including the friends of Mez - left Perugia in a hurry.

Sophie was made to stay behind. For all of the hours of grilling, phone tapping and being made to stay for questioning, Sophie never once complained.

She understood the reason police wanted to interview her.


Beatification cannot be following far behind her ultimate demise, I feel.

And I wonder if Sophie was, like Knox, being treated with increasing scepticism and hostility by the police in those days following the murder?


(Answer: No)
 
Er, you do know hundreds of people, mostly young women - including the friends of Mez - left Perugia in a hurry.

Sophie was made to stay behind. For all of the hours of grilling, phone tapping and being made to stay for questioning, Sophie never once complained.

She understood the reason police wanted to interview her.

Wow. Completely ignored the issues, the one you raised. That the police had to act quickly because, a serial killer could have been on the loose. Your claim. No one else, not Mignini nor anyone in Perugia ever claimed that.
 
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Sollecito lied to the police three times and not once has he retracted his testimony Knox was out without him until 1:00.

Now, that is a load of codswallop.
...I had at last worked out why Amanda did not leave—could not have left—my house on the night of the murder. She didn’t have her own key, so if she’d gone out alone, she would have had to ring the doorbell and ask me to buzz her back in. Even if I’d been stoned or asleep when she rang, I would have remembered remembered that. And it didn’t happen.
(Honor Bound)

I am obviously very happy for Amanda,[/URL] since I knew from the start that she had nothing to with it and I believed in her innocence"

How would he know that if she had gone out for 4 hours the night of the murder?

If Knox were out alone for 4 hours on the night of the murder, then why did no one see her? Oh, yes...Curatolo saw her AND Sollecito between 9:30 and midnight. So which was it? Was she out alone or with Sollecito? Pick one because they both can't be true...but both can be false. If she went to the cottage that night, why did the parking garage camera catch Meredith coming home and Guede but not Knox?

The telephone records and Lumumba put Knox outside RS's apartment the night before, on Halloween, during the hours Sollecito said happened the night of Nov. 1:

Lumumba testified she was at le Chic Halloween night, sometime around or just after 10:00. He wasn't sure of the time, but he remembers she was dressed like a cat.

Phone records on Halloween night between 11:38 pm and 01:05 Nov. 1 put her outside Raff's apt. At 00:41:49 Amanda calls Spyros connecting with tower Via Marconi, 6, Sett.2
At 00:57 Amanda texts Raff.
At 1:05 Nov. 1, Sollecito's land line calls Amanda for 53 seconds through Piazza Danti, 26, Sett.2. Neither serves RS's apartment.

It's just a koinky-dink that the times were the same, right?


Nor did he take the witness box to defend himself or explain why he told a pack of lies.

An innocent person simply does not behave like that.

No innocent person ever confesses to things they didn't do during an investigation, right?

Why do people confess to crimes they did not commit? And, surely, those cases must be rare? In fact, it happens all the time—in police stations, workplaces, public schools, and the military. Psychologist Saul Kassin, the world’s leading expert on false confessions, explains how interrogators trick innocent people into confessing, and then how the criminal justice system deludes us into believing these confessions.

Oh, wait...according to you, Kassin is 'bent'.

No innocent person ever implicates innocent co-defendants during an interrogation, right?

False confessions by co-defendants

In many cases, innocent suspects who confess implicate others who are also innocent. Some do it because that’s the story their interrogators want to hear. John Kogut, for example, not only falsely confessed to his own involvement in murder, he also said he did it with two friends Dennis Halsted and John Restivo, both of whom (like Kogut) spent 20 years in prison before they were exonerated in 2005.

And some innocent suspects who confess blame others to deflect responsibility and reduce their punishment. Richard Ochoa, for example, was facing the death penalty for the murder of Nancy DePriest in Austin, Texas in 1988. He confessed, named his roommate Richard Danziger as the actual killer and agreed to plead guilty and testify against Danziger. Both were convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Both were exonerated by DNA in 2002.
The Registry includes 195 exonerations with confessions by co-defendants who implicated the exonerees, 11 percent of all exonerations. The net result is that in 19 percent of all exonerations in the United States—and in 34 percent of homicide exonerations—the innocent defendant confessed or was implicated by a false confession of a co-defendant, or both.


An innocent person always testifies because s/he has nothing to hide, right?
That seems to be the way you think. But lawyers know that putting a defendant on the stand is risky because a) it shifts the burden of proof from the prosecution, b) a skilled prosecutor can make an innocent defendant look untruthful, often by making them angry, flustered, defensive, or unsure which jurors can interpret as signs of guilt, c) jurors might take a dislike to the defendant which has little to do with the case itself.
 
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Pick a lane. Was (a) AK trying to cover for Guede or (b) to point the police towards him? Choose (a) or (b).
Er, obviously Knox didn't realise police had Guede's DNA on the police database as an immigrant. She thought she could just point to an outsider - one that did not live at the cottage - as the perpetrator, to detract police from herself.

Snort. They didn't have his DNA, they had his fingerprints.

What an illogical bit of nonsense. Is it your contention that she believed the police would be able to find forensic evidence of Lumumba at the cottage when she knew he'd never been there? And when they didn't find evidence of him there, it would not expose her lie? The only way it makes sense is if she wasn't there and believed the police who kept insisting Lumumba was involved.

Not only that, what makes you think she believed they couldn't identify Guede if they didn't have his *DNA* on file...or even his fingerprints?

This is why your explanations for guilt always fall apart; they don't make logical sense or even follow the evidence.
 
Now, that is a load of codswallop.
(Honor Bound)



How would he know that if she had gone out for 4 hours the night of the murder?

If Knox were out alone for 4 hours on the night of the murder, then why did no one see her? Oh, yes...Curatolo saw her AND Sollecito between 9:30 and midnight. So which was it? Was she out alone or with Sollecito? Pick one because they both can't be true...but both can be false. If she went to the cottage that night, why did the parking garage camera catch Meredith coming home and Guede but not Knox?

The telephone records and Lumumba put Knox outside RS's apartment the night before, on Halloween, during the hours Sollecito said happened the night of Nov. 1:

Lumumba testified she was at le Chic Halloween night, sometime around or just after 10:00. He wasn't sure of the time, but he remembers she was dressed like a cat.

Phone records on Halloween night between 11:38 pm and 01:05 Nov. 1 put her outside Raff's apt. At 00:41:49 Amanda calls Spyros connecting with tower Via Marconi, 6, Sett.2
At 00:57 Amanda texts Raff.
At 1:05 Nov. 1, Sollecito's land line calls Amanda for 53 seconds through Piazza Danti, 26, Sett.2. Neither serves RS's apartment.

It's just a koinky-dink that the times were the same, right?




No innocent person ever confesses to things they didn't do during an investigation, right?



Oh, wait...according to you, Kassin is 'bent'.

No innocent person ever implicates innocent co-defendants during an interrogation, right?




An innocent person always testifies because s/he has nothing to hide, right?
That seems to be the way you think. But lawyers know that putting a defendant on the stand is risky because a) it shifts the burden of proof from the prosecution, b) a skilled prosecutor can make an innocent defendant look untruthful, often by making them angry, flustered, defensive, or unsure which jurors can interpret as signs of guilt, c) jurors might take a dislike to the defendant which has little to do with the case itself.

Do look up what a witness statement is.

By definition, a witness statement is a written record stating what a person saw and heard when a particular incident (often a crime) occurred. This document is then signed.

What is a witness statement?
A witness statement could be taken by a police office or a member of the legal justice system and can be used as evidence in criminal or civil court. Witnesses are encouraged to be as detailed and descriptive as possible in their statements. This includes stating times, describing surroundings, and conditions, for example, whether it was dark. Witnesses must also describe anyone they saw with as much detail as possible about their physical characteristics.

What does a witness statement include?
A witness statement is an official, legal document and therefore must always include:

A case number.
An incident or case name.
An official declaration, or statement of truth, which is signed and dated by the witness.

Witness statements should:
Be taken as soon as possible to make sure the events are fresh in the witness' memory and that they have not spoken to any other witnesses who may recall the events differently.
Be in the witness' own language - witnesses can be called into court and questioned about their statement.
https://www.twinkl.fi/teaching-wiki/witness-statement


A ghost written book long after the trial is not a retraction or a correction. It is a pack of lies for the gullible.

Curatalo and the objective scientific phone logs were all dealt with at the merits court.
 
Snort. They didn't have his DNA, they had his fingerprints.

What an illogical bit of nonsense. Is it your contention that she believed the police would be able to find forensic evidence of Lumumba at the cottage when she knew he'd never been there? And when they didn't find evidence of him there, it would not expose her lie? The only way it makes sense is if she wasn't there and believed the police who kept insisting Lumumba was involved.

Not only that, what makes you think she believed they couldn't identify Guede if they didn't have his *DNA* on file...or even his fingerprints?

This is why your explanations for guilt always fall apart; they don't make logical sense or even follow the evidence.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I very clearly said that when she pointed to an outsider 'other' as being the culprit she was not aware police would be able to identify Guede from his biometric details in their immigration data base. They identified Guede by matching his biometric and then confirming it was him by comparing his DNA on a toothbrush at his apartment with DNA collected at the cottage, on the sleeve of the jumper. (Sorry, that was all contaminated according to yourself.)

She named Patrik and it worked didn't it? He was duly arrested in front of his little kids and thrown int he slammer. In fact Knox and her mother were more than willing for him to remain there.

Luckily, a passing tourist was able to provide Patrik with an alibi.

Now, that would have been a genuine wrongful conviction.

Incidentally, absence of DNA is not evidence of absence. You yourself said the other day there were only two samples of Guede (despite the frequent claim his DNA was all over the crime scene).
 
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Wow. Completely ignored the issues, the one you raised. That the police had to act quickly because, a serial killer could have been on the loose. Your claim. No one else, not Mignini nor anyone in Perugia ever claimed that.

No you're right. The brutal slaughter of a British student is little more serious than just another burglary, right? The cops should have sat back and let Sollecito come for an interview in his own time instead of rudely ordering him to turn up.
 
Chiefi SC said was that Hellman failed to justify why he brought in Vecchiotti & Conti, Vecchiotti being well-known as dishonest and corrupt and lacking impartiality, with her belief she needed to protect murderers from conviction. She's another Peter Gill who thought she could bend justice.

From Wikipedia (google translate) https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delitto_dell'Olgiata
'The Civil Court of Rome on 21.04.2016 ruling at first instance sentenced the technical consultants of Pascali office Vicenzo Lorenzo, Arbarello Paul and Carla Vecchiotti for negligence in the performance of examinations of exhibits on the murder of the Countess, liquidating damages total of more than EUR 150,000 attributed, at the request of close relatives of the countess, the Foundation Alberica Filo della Torre in order to be used in charitable activities.'


Absolutely bent and as corrupt as hell.

It's amazing that you accuse some here of being conspiracy theorists when they question the police and prosecution's honesty when you constantly accuse any lawyer, judge, forensic expert or witness who does not support your beliefs as being corrupt, bent, incompetent, a shill, paid off, dishonest, lacking impartiality, etc.

How quickly you forget that Massei was censored by the CSC "with a serious and inexcusable violation of the law" for denying Sollecito his right to a lawyer as demanded by law. You forget that Massei illegally detained Mario Spezi in prison without a lawyer by misusing a law meant for the mafia. You forget that Monica Napoleoni, Lorena Zugarini, Stefania Squarta and several other Perugia police stand convicted of serious crimes themselves. But it's Gill, Hampikian, Vinci, Conti et al who are the bent and corrupt ones according to you! And Vecchiotti was found guilty of negligence in one case which you twist into something it wasn't.


She even colluded with the defence in bringing out a CD when she was supposed to be independent. She only asked for Hellmann's required permission in retrospect, after being caught red-handed by the Carabinieri conspiring with the defence.

Seems to me you made this claim before which was thoroughly debunked then. But maybe you'd like to present some evidence of your claim? No?

Which reminds me:

Why do you find it necessary to make up/invent/lie about things that never happened? Why do you need to dishonestly twist things using hyperbolically negative language?
 
Sitting in the armchairs. As dictated by mafia-lover Bongiorno and I believe Bruno had a bit of a reputation in that respect, too.

Why do you find it necessary to make up/invent/lie about things that never happened? Why do you need to dishonestly twist things using hyperbolically negative language?
 
Not if she didn't realise his DNA would identify him.

And you think she "didn't realize" this how? Knox wouldn't have known WHAT the police had or didn't have on Guede. She knew nothing about him or if his fingerprints were on record or not. Anyone arrested has their fingerprints taken and it becomes part of the police records. Knox, Sollecito and others had their fingerprints taken on Nov. 2.
 
So the pair turned off their phones just before their escapade into 'extreme sensations', with Sollecito the collector of fancy knives costing hundreds of Euros. Of course they went armed with knives. Witness Kokomani came across them and said so in his police witness statement.

All those knife flicks on Mez' body. Can't possibly have been done by Knife Boy, eh?

Anyone who puts any credence into Kokomani's story is delusional. Not even your beloved Massei believed him:

The inconsistencies in Kokomani’s statements are even more obvious. It is enough to think of the black bag which then revealed itself to be two people and of the throwing of olives and of a mobile phone which had allegedly been used to make a video which was subsequently shown to others and, furthermore, the time he had seemingly seen Amanda, a time predating her arrival in Italy and the mention of an uncle of Amanda’s of whose existence no one was able to supply confirmation.


All those knife flicks on Mez' body. Can't possibly have been done by Knife Boy, eh?

Not according to the forensics which detected no blood or DNA of Kercher on any of his knives....despite the lie still posted on TJMK.

"Knife Boy". This is the kind of thing one hears from the playground bully.
 
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