Tricky
Briefly immortal
What happened? Did somebody apply for the MDC?
The Professors Million Dollar Backlash
- Thread starter Pantaz
- Start date
Sherman Bay
Master Poster
A little more extended and contentious, perhaps, but bizarre? This particular challenge customer seems to embody most of what the others do -- evading the question, ignoring the requirements, dancing around the issue, and complaining bitterly about the inevitable outcome. If that's bizarre, then bizarre is the norm.
Jackalgirl
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2004
- Messages
- 1,801
<giggle> Tricky, I think I love you. ; )
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
I believe he advertises there so they take special care of him. Certain topics would just about guarantee a thread's deletion.
often mrunderstood
Thinker
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2004
- Messages
- 215
TP:
In the famous words of the great Nelson Muntz:
HA HA!
In the famous words of the great Nelson Muntz:
HA HA!
Azrael 5
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2003
- Messages
- 6,106
Assistant manger there Dave Scribner actually banned me(again)for "stalking" creating threads about Koenig! Thats not allowed,but libel and insults seemingly are.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
1.) The whole of The Professor's "challenge" should be kept public, ideally as a sticky, available for perusal by one and all. It should be shown as how NOT to make a challenge. Ideally, commentary could be included with all of his correspondence with JREF, to demonstrate why this challenge has been rejected.
2.) If it were me, I'd send a press release to all the major media, as well as any local media that might have an interest, showing just what kind of a "challenge" David Koenig was attempting to mount. After the first two or three letters, I think anyone with a brain would be able to figure out why this file is now closed.
3.) Forgive the derail, please, as this needs to be said:
One of the things which is critical to any libel case is the question of Malice. TP has proven malice time and again. I think that Jeff and Mr. Randi should sue the hell out of David Koenig, that it should be public, that there ought to be as much publicity regarding this as can be built. This man has lied, and tried to weasel his way through the whole process. He's now trying to smear the reputations of James Randi and Jeff Wagg. Not cool.
There needs to be a consequence for this kind of behavior.
2.) If it were me, I'd send a press release to all the major media, as well as any local media that might have an interest, showing just what kind of a "challenge" David Koenig was attempting to mount. After the first two or three letters, I think anyone with a brain would be able to figure out why this file is now closed.
3.) Forgive the derail, please, as this needs to be said:
One of the things which is critical to any libel case is the question of Malice. TP has proven malice time and again. I think that Jeff and Mr. Randi should sue the hell out of David Koenig, that it should be public, that there ought to be as much publicity regarding this as can be built. This man has lied, and tried to weasel his way through the whole process. He's now trying to smear the reputations of James Randi and Jeff Wagg. Not cool.
There needs to be a consequence for this kind of behavior.
Pantaz
Muse
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2008
- Messages
- 982
I disagree (at this time). He tried to pull-off a magic trick as paranomal and got called on it. In trying to save face, he resorted to childish name calling and fabrication.
BUT... if he follows through with what he's talking about on Magic Cafe, that would be crossing the line, IMHO.
KeyserSoze
Scholar
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 55
What's funny about this to me is that after all the fuss I have read from TP on the randi forums and in the magiccafe, I'm still not quite sure what his claim was. I admit that I didn't keep up with everything really well and read every post in the discussions, but I still did a lot of lurking in those threads over a long period of time. The main impression I got was that he was continuously trying to avoid making a claim or giving any details at all. I don't think it will be very hard for anybody else to make the same conclusion.
Actually, could someone please sum it up for me?
All I know is that his claim had something to do with detecting ghosts in a graveyard with video/sound equipment or something. Is that right? Are there more details to it that I missed?
Actually, could someone please sum it up for me?
All I know is that his claim had something to do with detecting ghosts in a graveyard with video/sound equipment or something. Is that right? Are there more details to it that I missed?
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
...while using some sort of radio frequency scanning device to create the random words and phrases to be recorded.
I don't think TP has much support over on the other forum, a couple of adherents but they have been strangely silent of late. The only arguments quickly devolve into semantic ones, avoiding any mention of actual facts. General embarrassment seems to reign.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Unfortunately, the embarassment is lacking in the place where it's needed. The Professor is still of the mistaken belief that Jeff and James Randi are trying to deny him his due, when it's pretty clear that if anyone's a cheat, it's him. That's the whole point behind the protocols, to prevent cheating. By making what establishes a "hit" self-evident, it prevents this kind of bizzarrie as we've been seeing from TP.
Let me phrase it another way, and hopefully, the folks I mention won't object to the use of their names in this post: Rolfe, as a DVM, would be able to show you evidence of a bacterial infection in an animal. This could be, for example, a pustule on an animal's body. (Don't. Say. It. Just. Don't. Say. It...) Following treatment with Penicillin, for example, we could see evidence of the success of the treatment: the pustule would be smaller, or absent. It's self-evident. It's measurable, observable, recordable. There's no trick involved. Either the treatment worked or it didn't.
Ditto Phil Plait observing astronomical phenomena: If you see something in the sky that looks out of place, you take a camera, get a photo, and watch it over time. You document the find, track it, and eventually, you ought to be able to get an idea of what it is. If you can't quantify it, you really don't have much, except some interesting pictures, and maybe a theory or two. On the other hand, if you can get some data, you can begin to examine it, and work your way through it all. If it turns out to be comet, you have the evidence to support it.
Another side to this is that it is supposed to be repeatable. Can I do the same thing you did, with the same methodology? If not, it was interesting, and maybe even fun. But beyond that, you have next to nothing. Had TP been able to pull off what he claimed, (whatever it was he was claiming; it seemed to shift like mercury on a glass plate), I'm pretty sure there would have been a great deal of interest in hearing from "the Great Beyond." It sure as hell would have answered the question as to whether or not there's a God, or even if God would be someone we'd want to know.
That was the whole thing behind "l'Affaire Benveniste," as Mr. Randi termed it. It was why there were double-blind tests of Homeopathy, and ultimately, why he taped his results in an envelope wrapped in tin foil and stuck it to the ceiling. Might seem odd, but, hey, it worked! A Fraud was uncovered. And we're better for it.
I'm sorry TP can't seem to figure out the basics of the Challenge. But it's not up to Jeff or anyone else to try and explain it to him. Frankly, there have been a great many people who have gone out of their way to make it easier for TP to put together protocols for the Challenge, to help him figure out how the hell it's supposed to work. If he can't get it right, it's because he CHOSE to be an idiot.
Let me phrase it another way, and hopefully, the folks I mention won't object to the use of their names in this post: Rolfe, as a DVM, would be able to show you evidence of a bacterial infection in an animal. This could be, for example, a pustule on an animal's body. (Don't. Say. It. Just. Don't. Say. It...) Following treatment with Penicillin, for example, we could see evidence of the success of the treatment: the pustule would be smaller, or absent. It's self-evident. It's measurable, observable, recordable. There's no trick involved. Either the treatment worked or it didn't.
Ditto Phil Plait observing astronomical phenomena: If you see something in the sky that looks out of place, you take a camera, get a photo, and watch it over time. You document the find, track it, and eventually, you ought to be able to get an idea of what it is. If you can't quantify it, you really don't have much, except some interesting pictures, and maybe a theory or two. On the other hand, if you can get some data, you can begin to examine it, and work your way through it all. If it turns out to be comet, you have the evidence to support it.
Another side to this is that it is supposed to be repeatable. Can I do the same thing you did, with the same methodology? If not, it was interesting, and maybe even fun. But beyond that, you have next to nothing. Had TP been able to pull off what he claimed, (whatever it was he was claiming; it seemed to shift like mercury on a glass plate), I'm pretty sure there would have been a great deal of interest in hearing from "the Great Beyond." It sure as hell would have answered the question as to whether or not there's a God, or even if God would be someone we'd want to know.
That was the whole thing behind "l'Affaire Benveniste," as Mr. Randi termed it. It was why there were double-blind tests of Homeopathy, and ultimately, why he taped his results in an envelope wrapped in tin foil and stuck it to the ceiling. Might seem odd, but, hey, it worked! A Fraud was uncovered. And we're better for it.
I'm sorry TP can't seem to figure out the basics of the Challenge. But it's not up to Jeff or anyone else to try and explain it to him. Frankly, there have been a great many people who have gone out of their way to make it easier for TP to put together protocols for the Challenge, to help him figure out how the hell it's supposed to work. If he can't get it right, it's because he CHOSE to be an idiot.
Everyone who applies for the MDC fits into one of 4 categories:
1) a fraud
2) delusional
3) a fraud and delusional
4) genuine paranormal abilities
The professor seems to me to believe that he actually has supernatural powers. It could be that I have been fooled, but I really got the impression that he believes his own claims. So I do not believe that he is simply a fraud, although I would not be surprised if some of his claims were...embellished.
People who hold delusional beliefs can go through extraordinary mental gymnastics at times to defend them. You see this sometimes in patients with dementia or after a stroke. They believe something and their mind makes up the details to fill in the gaps.
Since no one has ever successfully demonstrated paranormal abilities, I do not believe they exist. I thus assume that everyone who applies is either a fraud or delusional or both. This takes much of the joy out of the MDC. A person who is purely a fraud is unlikely to go through with a challenge, since the protocols are such that it would be exceedingly difficult to win through a trick. One is therefore left debunking sincere but delusional people, which although important is not nearly as satisfying as exposing a fraud.
With the professor, the question is whether he refused to submit a protocol because he did not want to be exposed as a fraud or because he was incapable of writing one. I suspect the latter. I think he just didn't get it.
1) a fraud
2) delusional
3) a fraud and delusional
4) genuine paranormal abilities
The professor seems to me to believe that he actually has supernatural powers. It could be that I have been fooled, but I really got the impression that he believes his own claims. So I do not believe that he is simply a fraud, although I would not be surprised if some of his claims were...embellished.
People who hold delusional beliefs can go through extraordinary mental gymnastics at times to defend them. You see this sometimes in patients with dementia or after a stroke. They believe something and their mind makes up the details to fill in the gaps.
Since no one has ever successfully demonstrated paranormal abilities, I do not believe they exist. I thus assume that everyone who applies is either a fraud or delusional or both. This takes much of the joy out of the MDC. A person who is purely a fraud is unlikely to go through with a challenge, since the protocols are such that it would be exceedingly difficult to win through a trick. One is therefore left debunking sincere but delusional people, which although important is not nearly as satisfying as exposing a fraud.
With the professor, the question is whether he refused to submit a protocol because he did not want to be exposed as a fraud or because he was incapable of writing one. I suspect the latter. I think he just didn't get it.
There is: Ignore TP. Kinda like you would let Grandpa ramble about the "good old times" when women didn't vote, brown folks would use different busses, a steak dinner cost 10c, etc.
Trust people to make up their minds on their own.
Without ripping on his listeners, does anyone really think TP's argumentation process might influence someone besides the realm of entertainment?
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
That only works up to a point.
Most of those who have failed have been genuinely respectful of James Randi. I can remember reading some of the responses to Kramer when he conducted the challenge, and many were surprising in their civility. This is nothing more than an attempt by TP to smear JREF. Not cool.
It's expensive as hell to bring a legal challenge to this man's behavior, but the precedent exists, (Thank you, Winston Wu), and perhaps there's an attorney who'd take the case pro bono. It's needed. This kind of smear job should NOT be allowed to stand.
Most of those who have failed have been genuinely respectful of James Randi. I can remember reading some of the responses to Kramer when he conducted the challenge, and many were surprising in their civility. This is nothing more than an attempt by TP to smear JREF. Not cool.
It's expensive as hell to bring a legal challenge to this man's behavior, but the precedent exists, (Thank you, Winston Wu), and perhaps there's an attorney who'd take the case pro bono. It's needed. This kind of smear job should NOT be allowed to stand.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
The MDC forum is public, so you do not have to be logged on to read the thread. Just so that it does not get lost I have made this post Forum Spotlight recommendations
Czarcasm
Groovy Groovy Guru
This is the part where we disagree heavily. From day one, it seemed to me that The Professor was using the MDC, and this forum, to publicize his career as a magician-he never intended to comply with the rules of the MDC. This was shown when he finally, after being shown what would and would not be acceptable according to those rules, put forth a proposal that deliberately flouted those very rules.
Azrael 5
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2003
- Messages
- 6,106
I agree.His initial plan was to use JREF/Randi to publicize Jim Callahan's ISP show last Halloween,when all that went t*ts up he quickly realized the game was up.
The JREF should never have allowed him to apply without media credentials relating to his claim,instead of of relating to his magic act.
All his talk about writing a book is just the same of his talk of genuine paranormal ability.
eirik
Muse
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 729
I think it is a sad case. It's like watching a train crash, as many have pointed out. You can't look away...
I know some here disagreed with my "interference" on halloween, but I hope we can put that to rest.
IMO the JREF should never sue this man, no matter what he says of the JREF. No sane person will ever take this seriously. He is obviously challenged in one way or the other. Ignoring him is the best way to go about it.
I know some here disagreed with my "interference" on halloween, but I hope we can put that to rest.
IMO the JREF should never sue this man, no matter what he says of the JREF. No sane person will ever take this seriously. He is obviously challenged in one way or the other. Ignoring him is the best way to go about it.