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The Others

epix

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The thread title is eponymous to the movie based on an idea similar to the M. Night Shyamalan film The Sixth Sense -- an idea based on exploring all the possibilities of afterlife. The prevalence of dichotomous views riding on rationality prevents other options that concern some cases of existence to be taken seriously. We love to trivilalize in the name of constructive simplification, coz we fear the complex, and so either there is God or there is not; the world population comprises either theists or atheists, so there are no "others." If they are, please identify them. That was the problem the kid in The Sixth Sense had: he could see the dead, but the vast majority of people couldn't.

We must go to the racetrack to see the "others." One of the races is a match race between two horses. (Actually one of them is a gelding.) Here is the post position:

1. The God Delusion
2. The Da Vinci Code

And away they go. The God Delusion takes an early lead . . .

The first impression can be misleading. The race was a virtual walkover for The Da Vinci Code. Here is the official chart of the race:

The Da Vinci Code
The novel became a worldwide bestseller that sold 80 million copies as of 2009 and has been translated into 44 languages. This makes it, as of 2010, the best selling English language novel of the 21st century and the 2nd biggest selling novel of the 21st century in any language.
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The God Delusion
As of January 2010, the English version of The God Delusion had sold over 2 million copies. It was ranked No.2 on the Amazon.com bestsellers' list in November 2006. In early December 2006, it reached No.4 in the New York Times Hardcover Nonfiction Best Seller list after nine weeks on the list.It remained on the list for 51 weeks until 30 September 2007. The German version, entitled Der Gotteswahn, had sold over 260,000 copies as of 28 January 2010.
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Who are those folks who bought those 80 million copies of Ed Brown's book? You can try the elimination method and ask who was unlikely to go to the bookstore to get it.

The book has been extensively denounced by many Christian denominations as an attack on the Roman Catholic Church. It has also been consistently criticized for its historical and scientific inaccuracies.
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I don't think that the populous subset of theists called the Christians was responsible for the best part of the 80 million copies sold. And that leaves the atheists as the only option. But the book is said to have been criticized for its historical and scientific inaccuracies, and as we know, the atheists are very partial to anything that is scientifically correct and instrumental in refuting the basis religions stand on. So are there actually "the others?"

If they are, they would surely share their views; they would point out the silliness of the false dichotomy that the atheists and the theists alike swim through.

The Forgotten Light

Father Holy, a village priest, battles against the state and religious bureaucracies of 1980s Czechoslovakia in his fight to raise money for a new church roof. Permeated by his love for the villagers, his encounters are marked by his good humor. In his losing battle against Church and State, Holy is ordered to be transferred away from his parish and his allies. The Czech-American, Milena Jelinek, adapted this moving story from the the novel The Forgotten Light, by the 1930s Czech writer/poet and Catholic priest Jakub Deml. (1934)
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epix said:
I don't think that the populous subset of theists called the Christians was responsible for the best part of the 80 million copies sold.
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Well, there's your problem.
 
I am not sure what you are asking here, but if it's a critque of The Da Vinci Code from an atheist point of view this is rather easy. It's potboiler crap. The background is third rate fiction (Holy Blood, Holy Grail), which is based on other third rate fiction (The Bible) as it's point.

There is one point about The Da Vinci Code that is fact. Paris actually exists. Outside of that....

The thing with the Catholic Church was that it has tried to shelter it's members from non theological literature so much, that most of it's members had never even heard of Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and thought that this type of garbage (referring to Brown's book) was actually new when it was in fact a rehash of ideas that have been around for many years.

Perhaps if the Church had been honest previously and actually... you know... allowed members to read alternative stupidity, then this fiction would not have sold 80 million copies, because it was old stuff.

BTW, I did see the movie version. It was pretty boring.

Norm
 
There are multitudes who get up, live their lives, and go happily to bed without giving much thought at all to God, atheism, or religion.

Are 'theist' and 'atheist' words for extremes that are always in tension with each other? Do most people live peacefully somewhere between?

The problem seems asymmetric to me. Atheists probably don't see apathy about religion or atheism as much of a threat, but theists must surely see the danger in apathy.

Book sales seems a convoluted way of looking at a problem though. I bought one at a used bookstore and received a second copy from someone as a gift (they did not know I already owned a copy). After reading I took them both back to the used bookstore, where they were presumably purchased by others. With those kind of patterns inherent in the system, I don't see how we can draw meaningful conclusions through book sales.
 
:facepalm:


I can't be bothered to actually find an image, that would be more effort than the OP deserves.
 
I don't think that the populous subset of theists called the Christians was responsible for the best part of the 80 million copies sold.
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And you would be wrong. *Some* church leader denounced the book. just like they denounced Harry Potter. But wanna bet that Harry Potter sold well among christian ?

You are just generalizing something without statistic (some church leader -> The whole christianity).


FYI Dan Brown did very well among the people I know, and very few are non-christian, and from the non christian, most are either muslim or Buddhist.
 
epix said:
the book is said to have been criticized for its historical and scientific inaccuracies, and as we know, the atheists are very partial to anything that is scientifically correct and instrumental in refuting the basis religions stand on.
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I'm an atheist and I read it. Literally every single other atheist I personally know read it as well.
 
the popularity of the da vinci code can be accounted for in a number of ways:

It's a book that ties into a lot of conspiracy theories and conspiracy theories sell well
It's a book that takes its name from an incredibly famous painter who had a mysterious life and has probably the world's most famous painting on the cover and integral to the plot.
It's a book about the provate life of Christ, and that's something a lot of christians are interested in.
It's written in a style and a textual complexity that a smart seven year old could grasp, vastly extending the number of people who, if they start it, will finish it.
It's written in a way that presents banal conspiracy theories as hidden secrets of the ancients, which seems designed to make the reader think they are now privy to something special and strange and are very clever for having found it out.

It's a book length marketing exercise, in other words.
 
A I think I see where the problem lies.

The book of dan brown is what is generally called "Fiction". That means that its not ment to be read as reality. Therefore its possible to read the book and be amused by it, while ignoring the errors inherent in the story.
Most people are able to read this so called "fiction" and separate it from reality.

But by your post it seems that you don't quite grasp that concept.

Now that's all fine and dandy, billions of people in the world follow some ancient work of fiction as literal truth. The problems occur when they start insisting that those who do not believe their personal book still follow their rules. That's when those pesky atheists start asking questions about actually PROVING the fiction.

I personally do not like dan brown as a writer. But since noone is forcing me to read his book and especially since those who do like his book do not insist I act in a way that shows I am a fan, I could care less about his book sales.
 
Lukraak Sisser said what I was going to say, only in more words. Fiction outsells non-fiction. The end.
 
epix said:
I don't think that the populous subset of theists called the Christians was responsible for the best part of the 80 million copies sold. And that leaves the atheists as the only option.
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It does? What about the populous subset of theists called the "not christians"?
 
epix said:
. . .
I don't think that the populous subset of theists called the Christians was responsible for the best part of the 80 million copies sold. And that leaves the atheists as the only option. But the book is said to have been criticized for its historical and scientific inaccuracies, and as we know, the atheists are very partial to anything that is scientifically correct and instrumental in refuting the basis religions stand on. So are there actually "the others?"
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When the “Da Vinci Code” came out, two women in the office went gaga over it. Both of them are open about their belief in and attendance to the Roman Catholic Church. When I pointed out how the stories seemed to attack the veracity of the church, they explained how the novels actually support the Roman Catholic Church, and it is only the evil satanic atheist illuminati that the book attacks. They also thought that the book was based on historical fact, and wanted to talk about how evil the Templar were for weeks.

I think you are very wrong in your assumption about the fan base of the book.
I’m also puzzled by your comparison of a pulp fiction series to a non fiction novel (or do you think that Dan Brown’s novels are historical as well?
 
Tormac said:
I think you are very wrong in your assumption about the fan base of the book.
I’m also puzzled by your comparison of a pulp fiction series to a non fiction novel (or do you think that Dan Brown’s novels are historical as well?
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If you believe the bible then you can believe anything.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
A I think I see where the problem lies.

The book of dan brown is what is generally called "Fiction". That means that its not ment to be read as reality. Therefore its possible to read the book and be amused by it, while ignoring the errors inherent in the story.
Most people are able to read this so called "fiction" and separate it from reality.

But by your post it seems that you don't quite grasp that concept.
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You are obviously detached from the realities of this world. Your opinion greatly differs from the one issued by cardinal Bertone who bemoaned the fact that Dan Brown's account became viable and more popular alternative to the one painted by the Church.

Things that are popular have a market value, and the Vatican came to realize that, yes, the prohibited fruit tastes the best. So the monks needed to change the tactics being suspicious of
The Vatican's 2006 campaign against The Da Vinci Code had the effect of whipping up interest in the film, which earned more than $757 million US.
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2009/05/07/angels-demons.html

The Church can adapt to the changing environment and suppress its emotions, but that cannot be said of the atheists.
 
Ysidro said:
Lukraak Sisser said what I was going to say, only in more words. Fiction outsells non-fiction. The end.
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The book has been extensively denounced by many Christian denominations as an attack on the Roman Catholic Church. It has also been consistently criticized for its historical and scientific inaccuracies.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Da_Vinci_Code
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Why would a fiction novel be criticized for its inaccurate historical and scientific content? There was plenty of opportunities to do so with Richard Dawkin's book, which bridged science and philosophy with something that no one in his right mind would walk on.
 
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