The L.D.S

[Chanileslie]

Re: Good point, T Boxer

Any cult that finds itself in the majority tends to get overbearing. A friend of mine once worked for the power company in Cody, Wyoming, a heavily Mormonised region of the earth. He was told by his Mormon supervisor that, no, he didn't have to convert to Saintism if he didn't want to, but it would be wise of my friend to give money to LDS - to tithe, in effect -- if he hoped for promotion. All quite unashamed and inyerface this was.

Hmm, that is really quite interesting especially since tithing is kept completely anonymous. Yes, in the Mormon religion, one is requested to donate 10% of one's income, but it isn't like in many religions where a collection plate is passed around nor is this an overt act, and if one doesn't donate, the Bishop isn't about to send goons to break one's legs. One takes an envelope, which are readily available, places the tithe amount in the envelope and then gives that envelope to the Bishop. What and how much if anything is in that envelope is no one's business. Pay stubs and proof of income are not requested. It is a matter of doing what god wishes, not of one-up-manship.

Now, if this person insisted that your friend hand over this tithe to him personally, then perhaps your friend should have contacted not only the authorities, but the church because extortion can be grounds for excommunication from the church.

Religious government is a bad, bad thing. We can be damn glad the LDS only controls Utah. If they'd managed to establish their independent country of Deseret, today we'd have an Iran or Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of North America. Not that Mormonism is anything but a mild-mannered protestant cult, either. It's just that power sanctioned by holiness is too strong a drink for human nature.

Joseph Smith was a reformed alcoholic, by the way.

Actually had the Mormons kept a private nation, I imagine it wouldn't be any different than Utah already is. Well, except for instead of being tightly controlled, I think alcohol wouldn't be available at all. And polygamy would probably still be practiced. Polygamy was only pushed out because Utah wanted to be admited to the Union.

 

[Chanileslie]

Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

Actually in the Mormon religion those who are not a member are referred to as gentiles, even Jews.

From Websters Online:

Main Entry: 1gen·tile
Pronunciation: 'jen-"tIl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation
1 often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew
2 : HEATHEN, PAGAN
3 often capitalized : a non-Mormon

 

[Chanileslie]

Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

It's good to hear some voices from the inside of Mormonism. I've often wondered what rewards believers of any denomination could possibly find in their cults, in particular LDS. It lacks just about everything you'd want in a religion. It has no poetry, no charisma, no glamour, no spectacle, and surely the dullest succession of prophets the world has ever seen. (Well, maybe I should qualify that in the case of J. Smith, who appears to have been a lot of fun, a genial con man who could wrangle some high times in just about any circumstances.) Now I understand LDS better: it's comforting to be an insider, to be accepted just as you are, as long as you say you believe. Not all protestant cults are like that.

I still can't fathom how modern-day Mormons, people who've been to school and use reason vigorously in every other aspect of life, can comfortably ignore the goofy blatherings that Smith put over on those 19th. century hayseeds. Perhaps there's a meta-Mormonism, a theology that explains all that stuff away? Or maybe most Saints just can't be bothered with that dullest of holy books, the Book of Mormon?

Let me assure you, my prickly language about Mormonism is NOT intended to disparage you individual believers and former believers; I'm not here to antagonize you in any way. It's just hard for a gentile born and raised in the West to keep his cool when the subject comes up.

Quite frankly, I don't think the LDS belief system is any more silly than any other belief system, and it is hard for me to fathom how anyone can believe any of that mystical crap. But I think belief is strong and wanting to believe plays a very big role in that. I think a lot of people find comfort in their beliefs and therefore it makes it all the stronger for them and the easier to ignore the irational crap.

And actually, in terms of bible and Book of Mormom knowledge, Mormons are pretty good at that. One is encouraged to read the bible and the BOM, not just selected passages and if one grew up in the church, one would attend in depth bible study courses during weekdays called Seminary. And one is supposed to continue the Seminary education through college. I attended Seminary, and I got to go to Disneyland because I read the bible all the way through. I was Bible Jeopardy Champion! Nobody could beat me at it in Seminary. I remember on Friday's, we would play Bible Jeopardy, and I was usually given a pretty hefty handicap. I hated our interstake competitions because part of the rules was that a person on a team could only answer every 3rd question to give other team members a chance to answer.

While in High School, there are 4 years of Seminary - one year focuses on each part of the scriptures. One year the Old Testament, the next year the New Testament, the next year the Book of Mormom, the next year the Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.

Here are some interesting facts about the Mormon belief system:
Mormon's do not believe in original sin. It is believed that with placing the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, god was providing Adam and Eve a choice - innocence and eternal life, or knowledge, understanding and a finite life.
The Mormons are not a monotheistic religion - they are headed by 3 gods - God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost with God the Father being the most powerful of the three.
Mormons also believe that Jesus is only the god of this planet, Earth and that other planets most likely have their own gods and saviors.
It is untrue that Mormons are not permitted to drink caffiene. The BOM specifically states hot liquids. So, while a ice coffee would be okay, a hot cup of coffee is not. I never quite understood this or how it applied to soup and tea.
The only benefit to being a woman in the Mormon church is that only men of the priesthood (all men above a certain age in the Mormon church obtain the priesthood: first the Aaronic and then the Mechelzdik (sp?)) can baptise, so a girl can pick any hottie she wants.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

Mormon's refer to non-Mormons as gentiles. Thus to a Mormon, Jew is a gentile too.

Pretty weird huh?

 

[roger]

Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

The Mormons are not a monotheistic religion - they are headed by 3 gods - God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost with God the Father being the most powerful of the three.

I am not LDS, but after reading this thread I googled to find the Book of Mormon. In The Tesimony of Three Witnesses it states

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.

It sounds more like the catholics trinity=one. Does LDS generally state that it is polytheistic, or is this more your take on it?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

And you have to admit, a couple of our generals were pretty good at their jobs. Patton and Eisenhower come to mind. As well as one of yours, MacArthur.
[/B]

I don't know how to break this to you but MacArthur was one of ours too.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Re: Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

I am not LDS, but after reading this thread I googled to find the Book of Mormon. In The Tesimony of Three Witnesses it states

It sounds more like the catholics trinity=one. Does LDS generally state that it is polytheistic, or is this more your take on it?

Yeah, that's a little contradictory, but I remember it being drilled into my head in Sunday School that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were in fact three seperate entities, not one entity like all those apostate churches taught.

 

[cbish]

chanileslie wrote:

Here are some interesting facts about the Mormon belief system:

Interesting. Any more?

The only benefit to being a woman in the Mormon church is.......

There's a thread starter!!

Since I had no experience with mormonism prior to meeting my wife, most of my beefs with the church involve social issues rather than religious ones. Even though there may published doctrines to mormonism, from my experiences, there appears to be many, many more 'unwritten rules'. ( I think the titheing story from Cody could be credible.) This is why I find these threads difficult because people here want evidence and all we can really discuss are antedotes.

There are definite gender roles in mormonism. Think pre WWII USA. All my sister-in -laws, my mother-in-law, my wife's mormon friends are all stay at home moms. (and pathetic, depressed, pill poppers.........not that correlation has causation but.........)

 

[Kitty Chan]

What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

More importantly, does he have a Pope hat?

 

[Stitch]

No, living prophets are a bad thing.

Not sure that dead ones are much better - people are still interpreting what Jesus wants them to do almost 2000 years after his death (assuming he ever existed).

 

[sackett]

Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

My use of the word "gentile" in this context is way-out-West-specific: Old-time Mormons called non-Mormons "gentiles." (I don't know if contemporary Mormons still do; hope so; it's a quaint practice.) My intent was to signal to the Westerners here that I grew up in Mormon country (more or less) and was familiar with that usage. I'm not 100% sure, but I think LDS considers even Jews to be gentiles!

Jeeze, I'd hate to get crossways of YOU after a couple of boilermakers.

 

[Loon]

Re: Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

My use of the word "gentile" in this context is way-out-West-specific: Old-time Mormons called non-Mormons "gentiles." (I don't know if contemporary Mormons still do; hope so; it's a quaint practice.)

Some of them do. My Mormon friend and I often trip up on discussions because we have different meanings for the word "Gentile," what with me being Jewish and all.

To say nothing of the time when, as a very young boy, I confused "gentile" and "genital" in the telling of a dirty joke. Not quite the repsonse I expected.

 

[sackett]

Deseret

If the kingdom of Deseret had been established (I like the phrase "private kingdom" BTW: that's exactly what the territory was in the days of Brigham Young) it would most certainly NOT look like modern-day Utah. Ever heard of the Avenging Angels? They were Brigham's fellahs; they went around dealing with people the Prophet didn't approve of -- and I believe they'd work for any Elder who had need of them and could slip them a little fee. If some goaty old Saint had his eye on a tasty-looking girl, the Angels would make sure that any young suitors she might have would pack their gear and ride out -- if they still could after the A's were done with them.

With statehood and the coming of constitutional law, that kind of thing lapsed, especially after Brigham's day, when a lot of rough-hewn frontier attitudes died with the original Mormons. But who can doubt that a full-grown religious tyranny would have propagated itself if it had had a free hand? No, I'm with T Boxer on this one: down with holy governments.

And yet, it's true that Mormons tend to be comfy, unoffending country folks - old-timey folks who keep the cellar full of good canned vegetables. I have no beef with non-doctrinal Mormons.

 

[sackett]

Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

Quite frankly, I don't think the LDS belief system is any more silly than any other belief system, and it is hard for me to fathom how anyone can believe any of that mystical crap. . . .

Yes, but: We know so much about Joe ("Oh the Carnal Mind!") Smith, and his effusions are such achingly transparent claptrap. (I've heard the BOM called a novel; well that's charitable.) It's not really mystical, or let's say it's p-poor mysticism. Smith's make-believe knowledge has been exposed so thoroughly and the origins of his doctrine are so clearly a con that I find it especially baffling that anybody this side of Lacchus or Ian or LifeGazer could accept even one syllable of it as true.

IOW, I fear that I must disagree: the LDS belief system -is- sillier than many others. My Jack Mormon uncle Bill would probably second that.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

yes he is just one guy, and he is rather like the pope in the sense of being the head of the church and is considered to have sort of a special connection to God from whence he draws his inspiration to lead. He is called a living prophet because he is literally considered to be a prophet . He does have a 'quorum' of twelve 'apostles' to assist him though.

He doesn't get the silly hat though. In every picture I have ever seen of him he was wearing a business suit.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Re: Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

My use of the word "gentile" in this context is way-out-West-specific: Old-time Mormons called non-Mormons "gentiles." (I don't know if contemporary Mormons still do; hope so; it's a quaint practice.)

They still did when I was active in the church, some 20 years ago.

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

cbish

One thing I have always found interesting, though, is how ex-mormons, no matter how critical they become of the church, will defend it. Randfan and I have agreed that there is a "fondness" for the church that is still entrenched in the mormon psyche. I have witnessed on the board as I have accused Randfan, and he admitted some truth to it, that he can be somewhat of an apologist. My wife, and a close friend, are the same way.

I've never witnessed this with other denominations. From my experiences, when someone leaves 'the church', it's usually a bad divorce. With mormons, even if they are completely inactive and rejectful of it's teaching, I find there's always the ....."yeah, but"....

Man, I just had this conversation a couple days ago and I’m glad to see I’m not imagining the trend.

Get this, we’re friends with a gay couple, devout Episcopals, been together 15 years, but one was once a Mormon and even endured their “reparative” therapy. The LDS church fights vigorously on the side of the religious right, but he’ll still defend it as through he just got back from his mission yesterday. He’s even expressed a desire to have their children baptized LDS. I don’t understand it.

I think the reason I don’t get it is found in what has been discussed by you and Soapy Sam, the integration of the religion into the family life, and the social insulation. Our friend was raised LDS, while I converted from plain old protestant.

I’d recommend anyone take the LDS up of their offer of “visitors welcome” in their churches, at least once. Everyone, from children to adults, is encouraged to “bear their testimony”. This is a long emotional speech in front of the whole congregation that always starts with “I know this church is true and…” What follows is an emotional list of gratefulness for family, life, and god. It’d make a lasting impression on anyone raised in that church.

How could anyone whose educated and reasonable believe that dribble? Easy! Surround yourself with people who are desirous of the same things you are and develop you own 'mutual masturbation society'.

Yes, they know what they’re doing. They want something to be true and, as you say, they’ll surround themselves with likeminded folks.

I’m more on Chanileslie’s side here, I don’t think they’re stupid, just self-pleasuring . When I think of the apologetics for the Bible, made by some very bright believers, I can see areas where the LDS scriptures are worse off, but others where they fare better (for example again, the relative few internal contradiction).

Thaiboxerken:

I shudder at the thought of the Mormons gaining dominant control of a country. What messages will their living prophets recieve from God then?

No, living prophets are a bad thing.

I’d certainly not want to live in their theocracy; I’m just saying I’m rooting for them to take a good chunk of the religious scene, if there must be one.

I can see how the “living prophet” looks like a monarch and in some ways he is. It can be dangerous.

Still, and as Stitch said, he’s better than an immovable dictatorship of dead guys from a long gone and brutal culture. Look at the history. The LDS prophets have taken a racist, sexist, group of pale polygamists and, by the supposed direction of God, made a bunch of largely pleasant, family friendly Protestants (and they’re even slightly less sexist ). It’s been a large positive change for them, and, while the LDS may attribute it to God, I think it was, in fact, the society controlling the religion through the prophet. More modern and more humane morals can be more easily accommodated into the religion because there is a figurehead who speaks for God. He is not completely bound by the texts, nor does he need to stretch flimsy “interpretations” to fit modern morals as the more liberal protestant churches do, further risking their credibility.

Also, unlike groups like the Baptists, there’s a guy who is in control of the religion and who can be held accountable by his society. You’re not going to see a Fred Phelps Mormon because there is centralized control in the LDS church, and Brother Phelps would be excommunicated, if not for his cruelty, then for the bad publicity he brings.

 

[Chanileslie]

Re: Re: Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

I am not LDS, but after reading this thread I googled to find the Book of Mormon. In The Tesimony of Three Witnesses it states

It sounds more like the catholics trinity=one. Does LDS generally state that it is polytheistic, or is this more your take on it?

Each is believed to be a seperate individual, not one and the same, but serving the same purpose. They act in accord. In the church, there was the long running joke about other religions of a christian bent who had a god with three heads, six arms and six legs because of the trinity thing. They are three, yet one!! The Mormon's are very polytheistic, even believing that there are more gods than the ones they worship. God had to be created by someone, eh? They believe God had a father as well. And each planet has its own set of gods.

 

[Chanileslie]

What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

It is just one guy. And he has 12 Apostles from which when the one guys die, the new prophet will be chosen, usually the guy who has been an apostle the longest.

Like the Pope, the Prophet actually runs the Mormon Church, sets doctrines, makes decisions. I don't believe he has a Popemobile and he tends to wear plain suits, not fancy gold and jewel encrusted robes for him and no strange hats either.