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The human brain

epepke said:
We should have Mollusc eyes anyway, requiring less processing.
IIRC these are also more robust against such injuries as retinal detachment, and don't have blind spots where the nerve attaches. Or so say experts who argue with creationists. :)
Well, whatever, the occuput is a really nice place to put a jack. Or a toggle switch.
Gimme a USB 2 jack so I can plug in various wireless adapters. I'm smarter when I have Google handy...
 
epepke said:
We should have Mollusc eyes anyway, requiring less processing.....

So how would that affect migraines? Would the aura go away?... since the vision processing takes up so much brain territory it is usually one of the first things that is disturbed during migraines.

Learned this when son #1 got his first indication of inheriting his dad's tendency for migraines. He says it looked like someone had put on invisible purple shades over his eyes (Purple Haze... followed by extreme pain and nausea).. His dad's vision just gets wavy.
 
jay gw said:
The human brain is a crap design.
Yeah, well, that's what you get when you let interaction with the environment over millions of years design something for you.

Optimal doesn't mean doing everything perfectly. It means doing it in a balanced way.
Again, this depends on what something is "optimal" for. Which niche? And currently, our niches change much more often than our generations, so natural selection is having a helluva time trying to keep up.

The posts about, "why is worse for someone to have no social skills but do math very well" get right to the center. Because that's not balanced! It's not moderate.
But it may be just right for a particular niche. Insects are tremendously successful, and they tend to be specialists, not generalists. I think your word "optimal" contains a lot of hidden assumptions.

The absolutely superior brain, designed by God (if such a thing existed) would take resources from what you're not doing and apply them to the task at hand.
Ours does, both short-term and long-term. If you lose your sight (um, optically, not cortically), your occipital cortex will gradually be used for other tasks, for instance.

Why do I need to have resources in the artistic part of my brain -- because, yes that's how it's designed, it's designed as compartments --when I'm doing math? Or driving a car? Is that useful?
"Because yes that's how it's designed"? No, that is how it is oversimplified. Your OP said we don't know much about the brain, and now we know enough to say how it is designed? Our understanding of "how it is designed" has changed tremendously over the years, and continues to change. I would argue with your opening premise, just a bit; we know a tremendous amount about the functioning of the brain. It is just that there is so much more to know.

So..."the artistic part of your brain"...is more likely to be a combination of many different sub-processes, some of which are also used in math or in driving a car. Many processes (say, visual perception) which appear unitary, are actually the work of many different processes working in unison. (I assume you know all this anyway, but for the sake of others reading...) The complex stimulus of your visual field will stimulate areas responsible for color, edge, angle, motion, name, emotional relevance, and probably a bunch more that I am not familiar with. Note that most of these are involved in both art and driving a car....math, too, for that matter. The parts of our brain are involved in many varied tasks, and flexibly at that.

Sometimes people forget where their brain came from. It comes from apes. I don't think you want to dwell on that.
Oh, it started way before apes...

Oh, and an extra plug here for ThirdTwin's post above. 100% agreement from me. Looking for where the mind interfaces with the brain (and being dissappointed at not finding it) is like looking for the fountain of youth in Florida. The difference is, we finally decided that Florida could be completely described without mentioning the fountain of youth.
 
Originally posted by jay gw

The human brain is a crap design
Compared to what?
Optimal doesn't mean doing everything perfectly. It means doing it in a balanced way.
Would you say that the design of my computer lacks 'balance' because it does not make a good coffeepot?
The absolutely superior brain, designed by God (if such a thing existed) would take resources from what you're not doing and apply them to the task at hand.
Good design takes into account the costs incurred in manufacture. In terms of embryonic development, the human brain is already one of the most expensive structures in the biological world (so expensive in fact that the final stage is not actually even complete when the product is shipped). What you seem to be suggesting is implementing what has been called 'multiple superimposed functionality'. The difficulty in achieving efficiency in the face of the additional complexity this tends to involve, as well as the limitations in flexibility in future designs it imposes, make this a very rare feature in human-engineered devices. For example, I think you would be hard pressed to make a case for the idea of a math coprocessor which doubles as a graphics card during downtime being an improvement, once all things are considered. Nevertheless, one of the reasons why so little is known about the brain is that its design does appear to include examples of this property.
Sometimes people forget where their brain came from. It comes from apes. I don't think you want to dwell on that.
I'm so happy to dwell on that that I won't even quibble about your lack of hesitation in applying the word 'apes' to protohumans. What you refer to as 'deficiencies' arise from attempts to use the device to solve problems not included in the original design specs; you are complaining that the brain does not do things it was never designed to do. Within the parameters of the types of problem it was designed to solve, and within the margin of error natural selection found acceptable, the human brain is amazingly fast, powerful, and flexible.

Before we could possibly hope to imagine what might constitute improvement, we would have to specifically describe what type of problem the proposed new model would be applied to.
 
For example, I think you would be hard pressed to make a case for the idea of a math coprocessor which doubles as a graphics card during downtime being an improvement, once all things are considered.

Not true. The newest computers for personal home use have built in graphics cards that borrow resources when video is played.

They share resources, except when they need more then they borrow.

The absolutely superior brain design would allow an individual to consciously will resources to one task or another.

And the comment about apes - evolution of the brain. Do apes drive cars? Do they write letters? Do they use computers?

Why is it a good thing that the human brain which must do all that evolved from animals whose primary task each day appears to be sitting under shade trees and picking things out of their hair?
 
jay gw said:
Why is it a good thing that the human brain which must do all that evolved from animals whose primary task each day appears to be sitting under shade trees and picking things out of their hair?
Go to a shopping mall and observe people's behavior some time.
 
Originally posted by jay gw

Do apes drive cars? Do they write letters? Do they use computers?
These are good examples of tasks that are outside the original design specifications. Whatever enables us to do these things was designed for other purposes.
Why is it a good thing that the human brain which must do all that evolved from animals whose primary task each day appears to be sitting under shade trees and picking things out of their hair?
What you are suggesting is that there is some better thing the human brain might do. I don't disagree -- at least, while I think arguments for the virtues of sitting under a tree versus sitting in front of a computer could be made, I won't attempt them here -- but I wouldn't be too quick to install components dedicated to tasks which may become meaningless within a few years, decades, or even centuries. You would need to define meaningful objectives over thousands of years at least.
 
jay gw said:
Not true. The newest computers for personal home use have built in graphics cards that borrow resources when video is played.

Um, no. They have built-in graphics cards that function just like add-on graphics cards. The graphics card handles graphics-specific functions, taking the load off the CPU. IF overloaded, the CPU will process some of the load, but this rarely happens. In any case, this is a cart before the horse situation. Graphics accelerators (the correct term for a card that process info...i.e.-has a GPU) were desinged so the CPU didn't have to do it, and the CPU cannot use the graphics accelerator for other tasks. Your exampel is the opposite of what you want...it's an example of adding additional specialized areas rather than multi-use systems.

They share resources, except when they need more then they borrow.
To a degree. However, each is limited in many aspects, and can only borrow from a specfic set of general components. A Network card won't "borrow" from the graphics card, or sound card, or hard drive controller, etc. Each component has a specific function, they simply share a few things. This is similar to the brain as it is...our memory is a common pool that can be drawn on by all parts of the brain, while ability at art, math, spacial structures, etc are all in specialized parts of the brain.

The absolutely superior brain design would allow an individual to consciously will resources to one task or another.
Well, we can as much as a computer does. See my last explanation for how. You seem to want all parts of the brain to be able to do all things...in general, this is going to be a tradeoff. In all areas of design, both human and evolutionary, specialization has been a prime factor. You really don't have many general purpose organs or parts. If these were advantageous, you would. In engineering, trying to make general purpose systems is usually going to give less performance for the cost and energy than a specialized system.

And the comment about apes - evolution of the brain. Do apes drive cars? Do they write letters? Do they use computers?

Why is it a good thing that the human brain which must do all that evolved from animals whose primary task each day appears to be sitting under shade trees and picking things out of their hair?

As opposed to humans whose primary task seems to be working a mindless job then getting home in time to see their shows?

However, as others have stated, this argument supports the already multi-purpose nature of the brain as a whole. Specific areas are dedicated to specific tasks, because we need them to be. Trying to generalize everything would lead to a brain that, assuming the same size and energy, was less able overall (although perhaps more resilient) than the one we have.
 
Trying to generalize everything would lead to a brain that, assuming the same size and energy, was less able overall (although perhaps more resilient) than the one we have.

I didn't say everything would exist in some kind of common pool to be drawn from. There would certainly be dedicated or specialized areas. What I'm saying is that a brain that could borrow or "augment" by taking from one area and adding to another temporarily would be superior to the one we have now.

Have you ever seen a person that's had head trauma? They have to relearn some tasks. Sometimes it's how to speak, how to read.

Why wouldn't a brain that could use unaffected and healthy parts to augment the damaged areas be better than the current design?

And, do brain cells regenerate? I've heard the answer is no.

Some people, never known for being humble John, won't admit there's anything wrong with the status quo.

Read the "Kuhn and scientific revolution" thread to see why it's so.
 
Originally posted by jay gw

What I'm saying is that a brain that could borrow or "augment" by taking from one area and adding to another temporarily would be superior to the one we have now.
How would that be superior?

You seem to be operating under the assumption that 'more power' equals 'better functionality'. You might consider the fact that normal nervous system development involves a ruthless pruning stage, during which something like 50 to 70 percent of the total number of neurons are destroyed. We don't know very much about the details of how the brain does many of the things it does, but apparently it is possible to have too much of a good thing.
And, do brain cells regenerate? I've heard the answer is no.
As far as I know, there has never been a well-documented report of return to function after damage involving the neuronal cell body. Recent findings tend to confirm what neurologists have long suspected: that neurons are explicitly prevented from regrowing.

Myelin-derived axon outgrowth inhibitors
 
Recent findings tend to confirm what neurologists have long suspected: that neurons are explicitly prevented from regrowing.

Meaning brain damage is permanent. That's well designed??

If something is damaged or critical things like speech affected another part would assist or replace the critical functions. But also, if you needed more resources for a task in front of you, other parts of the brain could assist. Sometimes what the brain needs is more power, sometimes not.
 
Originally posted by jay gw

Meaning brain damage is permanent. That's well designed??
If you total a car, does that automatically indicate that the car was badly designed? We discard things all the time when repairing them is not practical. Does this necessarily mean they were not well designed? It is another example of a tradeoff. I would suggest that the brain is not explicitly designed to be damaged; that much of what the brain does is, in fact, ultimately dedicated to avoiding damage. But evolution has allowed for the possibility, by equipping the brain with far more neurons than it actually needs to get by. If damaged neurons are not replaced, it may not be due to unacceptable costs that would involve, but simply because it doesn't have to.
 
Jay GW,

Are you making some sort of case against ID vis-a-vis this adolescent dialog you are having?
 
Are you making some sort of case against ID vis-a-vis this adolescent dialog you are having?

Translation - anyone talking about the human body in a critical way is "adolescent". Just because you never thought along these lines doesn't excuse the insults.

I would suggest that the brain is not explicitly designed to be damaged;

One of the other posters, maybe it was you, made the (smart) remark that the brain was the result of thousands, millions of years of evolution. How dare anyone criticize it!

How is it even conceivable that damage to a physical organ, after millions of years, has not been adapted to? But, it hasn't.

I'm not sure why anyone would continue arguing that the human brain is perfectly designed, given the evidence that it has many imperfections.
 
jay gw said:


How is it even conceivable that damage to a physical organ, after millions of years, has not been adapted to? But, it hasn't.

You're absolutely right. That's why damage to the heart usually heals within seconds. If you get your arm cut off, on the other hand, it takes months to regrow. The brain is the ONLY major organ in the human body that can't regrow itself.

Where did you attend medical school again?
 
You're absolutely right. That's why damage to the heart usually heals within seconds. If you get your arm cut off, on the other hand, it takes months to regrow. The brain is the ONLY major organ in the human body that can't regrow itself.

You just don't want to listen. You're being "difficult".

It's exactly my point - the brain is NOT perfectly designed. You just reiterated my point, and then insulted me like it wasn't my point.

Just because limbs don't regenerate doesn't mean the brain is the best design it could be.
 
Nobody's arguing that the brain is perfectly designed. What I'm suspicious of is the assertion that there is such a thing a single perfectly optimized design. To make that assertion ignores the reality of physical constraints. You could, in theory, if you knew enough about genetics and the brain, improve the design vs. a particular goal or constraint, but that is not equal to designing the perfect brain.

Do you think there might be a reason why brain tissue doesn't regenerate? What if regeneration was costlier or riskier than just reusing different parts of the brain or dealing with the damage in some other way? Not saying that's the case, but have we ruled it out?
 
Originally posted by jay gw

How is it even conceivable that damage to a physical organ, after millions of years, has not been adapted to? But, it hasn't.
But, it has. Regeneration simply isn't the way evolution chose to address the problem.

I'm not sure why anyone would continue arguing that the human brain is perfectly designed, given the evidence that it has many imperfections.
As Zombified has just pointed out again, nobody here is arguing that. The argument is that no such thing as 'perfect' exists. You are stuck on the idea that it does, and that superimposed functionality and neuronal regeneration are the best solutions to certain design problems. We're just trying to help you get unstuck.
 

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