The Ganzfeld Experiments

[CFLarsen]

I'm asking DD if he believes error to exist in the first place. If he doesn't, there is no point in me spending time describing it.

It doesn't matter if he believes that an error exists or not. He asked you a question:

What is the source of error in the Millikin experiment?

Why not just wait and see how DD answers?

Why not simply answer DDs question, instead of all these evasions?

 

[T'ai Chi]

I'm asking DD if he believes error to exist in the first place. If he doesn't, there is no point in me spending time describing it.

Please be patient and see how DD answers.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Originally posted by dharlow:

...snip... I find the physical phenomena of some psychics (mediums actually) to be the strongest case parapsychology has for evidence for psi.

Like what physical phenomena, for instance?

 

[Dancing David]

I'm not going to go into depth with this discussion and waste time if you disbelieve error exists in the first place.

So... are you denying any error exists in the experiment? YES or NO?

If YES, you're wrong and this discussion is stopped.

If NO, I'll talk about some of the various types of error. There are a lot.

The level of error in the Milikin experiment is a known and quantitative, the mass of the drop of water and the charge of the dxrop were known inconcictancies.

This is very different from the Ganzfeld studies , where there is no record of how the randomization of the targets was chosen. At least it is not mentioned.
The possibility for reciever match to any given target is not controlled ofr, there fore if there is an imperfect match rate to a random receiver response there is NOT a twenty five percent chance of the reciever statement matching.
If there is a non random chance of different pictures being chosen by the judge because of response bias then that is not controlled for then you can NOT assume that there will a random twenty five percent chance of a judge chosing a target.
If there is no actual double blind in the target assignation, and no actual double blind in the judge matching, there is a good source of error.


And that is why the meta analysis is flawed as are many of the trials and runs, there is almost no data record to look at to deteremine what has happened. Since so many sources of error are left uncontrolled in the originating studies it is really difficult to even imagine that the meta nalysis is meaningful.

So while I feel that there is potential for psi research in the future, especialy given it's low cost, the past research seems to be fraught with arror and sloopy procedures. I think it is interesting that the later studies tend to still show the Ganfeld effect and if they can control for all the known issues and quatify them, then there can be discussion of what causes the effect.


(I have been associated with three publishged studies when I was an undergrad, as a professional I have been involved in about ten studies of treatment effectiveness, employee and management communication, treatment perception and outcomes and plain old customer satisfaction surveys.)

As a minor historian of research psychology I am aware of the effect that uncontrolled for artifacts has on data. Especialy in any meta-analysis, most of the Community and Hospital Mental Health papers that I reveiwed and read were very careful to discuss, control and lack of control, demographics and potential sampling errors, sample size and potential sample bias, trial size and all sorts of other quirky issues.
( Like is the Beck Depression Inventory an adequate measure of response to antidepressants on a long term basis, or is a quality of life form a better data tool in long term treatment. Or the evn better, do schizophrenics benefit from social skills training, why and why not. What is the validity of data gathered on suicide?)

 

[T'ai Chi]

The level of error in the Milikin experiment is a known and quantitative

As is a hit rate in a ganzfield study, say a proportion p + or - some error. It is the same thing with measurements of mass, density, charge, etc.

This is very different from the Ganzfeld studies , where there is no record of how the randomization of the targets was chosen. At least it is not mentioned.

Well that is quite different than "no record". Why don't you contact some of the researchers for extra details?

If there is a non random chance of different pictures being chosen by the judge because of response bias then that is not controlled for then you can NOT assume that there will a random twenty five percent chance of a judge chosing a target.

I suppose it would depend on the content of the pictures. If the pictures only had a single element in them, with homogeneous content, then that might work.

treatment perception and outcomes and plain old customer satisfaction surveys.)

Did you do Quality Assurance for a human or animal hospital? That is the field I am about to go into (hopefully).

 

[dharlow]

Like what physical phenomena, for instance?

Movement and operation of objects without apparent physical contact, as well as the appearance of hands and lights by unknown agency.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Originally posted by dharlow:

Movement and operation of objects without apparent physical contact, as well as the appearance of hands and lights by unknown agency.

Please provide example(s) (not anecdotes) of such phenomena replicated under controlled conditions that rule out conjuring or observervation errors.

 

[CFLarsen]

Movement and operation of objects without apparent physical contact, as well as the appearance of hands and lights by unknown agency.

Who can do this?

 

[Ed]

We are about to have the discussion about how light harms spirits and Starlight Scopes and so on create an "unfriendly" atmosphere.

T'ai, meanwhile, is flailing and attempting to divert attention from a fatally flawed experiment.

 

[dharlow]

Please provide example(s) (not anecdotes) of such phenomena replicated under controlled conditions that rule out conjuring or observervation errors.

I started a thread a while back listing some references to such work:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32514&highlight=eusapia

My position on this information is also stated in this thread farther down in answer to some of the questions and remains the same.

This phenomena is not restricted to mediums, also being observed in some poltergeist cases, including the Culver City case which is discussed in a recent thread in this forum (and to which I provided a link...it is the 'Entity' thread title which was started about a week ago).

Claus, I hope this addresses your question as well.

 

[CFLarsen]

I started a thread a while back listing some references to such work:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32514&highlight=eusapia

My position on this information is also stated in this thread farther down in answer to some of the questions and remains the same.

Thanks. In that thread, I found two references to books, but no descriptions whatsoever about what happened:

Sittings With Eusapia Palladino and Other Studies - Everard Feilding
The work of the S.P.R. investigator Everard Feilding, with the main bulk of the book being a reprint of his 11 sittings with Eusapia Palladino (along with investigators W.W. Baggally, and Hereward Carrington). These 11 sittings were stenographically recorded and are of interest. Should be obtainable for a reasonable price.

Eusapia Palladino and Her Phenomena - Hereward Carrington
The co-investigator with Feilding. The book contains a useful summary of the studies done with Palladino, including the author's own.

Could you summarize the effects, and what controls there were?

Do you have any examples of such phenomena replicated under controlled conditions that rule out conjuring or observation errors?

This phenomena is not restricted to mediums, also being observed in some poltergeist cases, including the Culver City case which is discussed in a recent thread in this forum (and to which I provided a link...it is the 'Entity' thread title which was started about a week ago).

I'm afraid I can't locate any reference to a poltergeist case in Culver City from about a week ago - or ever, actually. Can you find a direct link?

 

[Dancing David]

As is a hit rate in a ganzfield study, say a proportion p + or - some error. It is the same thing with measurements of mass, density, charge, etc.


Tai, if I felt that you were reading my posts then I would feel beter about this discussion. There are sources of error in the ganzfeld studies which the researchers do not try to quantify or control for. They don't talk about it in the research papaers they don't control for it is the research studies.

So you can't generate that little p. It does not exists in the ganzfeld studies , so that little p could be the effect.

Well that is quite different than "no record". Why don't you contact some of the researchers for extra details?

Tai , if they are ranomisng the test targets then that should be published in the protocol and no one would even think of saying that they were being non-selective and getting thrown out. All the studies where fraud is accused, they must be thrown out until the researcher comes forwards. This is standard procedure.

I suppose it would depend on the content of the pictures. If the pictures only had a single element in them, with homogeneous content, then that might work.

This just shows that you didn't read a large amount of this thread. The pictures can be rated for both random match and response bias by the judge. Then you can either matched in taregt/decoy sets or in fact you can use, low taed pictures to garuntee the psi effect is the seen effect.

The ganzfeld authors would prefer that the pictures contain more objects and in fact prefer videos because it 'makes a better target'.


Did you do Quality Assurance for a human or animal hospital? That is the field I am about to go into (hopefully).

QA huh, no I didn't do research on it but I have done it as a professional for the last 15 years, it is a burden but it needs to be done.(In most settings it means chart review for standards and billing errors)

(The only research I am assisting with right now is a study on barriers in systems to women fleeing domestic violence. I would really like to do a survey of children's servives in domestic violence but there is no time. Even better would be one on the punative role that DCFS(Department of Children and Family Services) takes with victims, there is a papaer published by a lawyer/social woker Sandy Koeppel that I agree with, she says that childrens protective ofetn punish the mother in a DV situation.)

 

[dharlow]

Could you summarize the effects, and what controls there were?

Do you have any examples of such phenomena replicated under controlled conditions that rule out conjuring or observation errors?

Three investigators (E. Fielding/W.W. Baggally/Hereward Carrington) who had long experience and knowledge of deception and fraudulent mediumship agreed to investigate her in 6 sittings, which were extended to 11 given the results obtained. She was seated at a rectangular table with two of the investigators seated on each side of her, while the third would on occasion control her as well. A curtain was hung behind her in the corner of the room (forming a triangular recess behind her) in which she said she could "concentrate the force" or something like that. Unlike most physical mediums, Palladino gave sittings in the light, which would be lowered or raised at times but only rarely put out. The controls were dictated to a stenographer who sat a few feet away, so as to limit observational error. I don't have the report on hand, but I believe nearly 500 phenomena were recorded, the most frequent being the tilting and levitation of the table to a height of 2-3 feet and for several seconds and the blowing out of the curtain, which would often blow out to its full extent. Other phenomena included raps, invisible touches and grasps as by a hand, visible hands and strange looking heads which came out the curtain, lights which floated about, and the movement of a smaller table that had been placed in the "cabinet" (the triangular recess). The controls placed on the medium included tying her hands and feet to the controllers hands and chairs respectively, the use of a "stocks" device to prevent the use of the feet and knees to levitate the table. Other observers would sometimes stand to the right and left of the medium (and controllers) to see if they could spot any cheating. Mainly, however, the investigators made sure to hold her hands and feet, and with a pretty good light in the room, they felt this was sufficient. All three investigators gave their conclusions in favor of paranormality.

I can't really do the report any justice...it's about 300 pages and is nicely reprinted in the first book you listed above, which is not too expensive. It makes for interesting reading regardless of how one interprets it, I believe. Carrington's book summarizes the other research done on Palladino throughout her career along with his own experience, so it provides a nice companion to the first.

I'm afraid I can't locate any reference to a poltergeist case in Culver City from about a week ago - or ever, actually. Can you find a direct link?

The case itself occured in 1974...the thread was from a week ago. Sorry about the confusion.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=41612

 

[CFLarsen]

dharlow,

I'm sorry, but I am not impressed. In fact, I'm disappointed.

Palladino's seances are classic performances of that period. Raps, tilting and levitation of tables, touches from invisible hands, etc. That Palladino seems secure does not eliminate the possibility of an accomplice. This took place in her own home?

As for the Taff article - I really don't know where to begin....it stinks to high heaven, and it ain't the smell of dead bodies. The woman is clearly psychologically unstable, and I strongly suspect some fraud on behalf of the sons. They never see the young daughter? Gee, I wonder in what cupboard she was hiding...

I'll just post this quote as an example of how credulous Taff seems:

"We took a preliminary shot of the bedroom with the Polaroid SX-70 that came out perfectly. After about fifteen minutes Candy shouted out that there was something in the corner of the bedroom. After hearing Candy’s shouts I rapidly ran back into the bedroom from the kitchen where I was examining the developed first photograph and immediately aimed and fired the Polaroid camera.

The resulting photograph was completely bleached white, as though exposed to some powerfully ionizing radiation, which if present, might have had strong adverse effects on our bodies, perhaps even to the degree of causing burns and extensively damaging cells."
Source

Read the last sentence again, and tell me that Taff is a credible investigator.

These are the best examples? Like I said, I am disappointed.

 

[dharlow]

dharlow,

I'm sorry, but I am not impressed. In fact, I'm disappointed.

Palladino's seances are classic performances of that period. Raps, tilting and levitation of tables, touches from invisible hands, etc. That Palladino seems secure does not eliminate the possibility of an accomplice. This took place in her own home?

The seances took place in the investigators' hotel room which they chose themselves. The room was examined for trap doors and accomplices (despite being their own room) before each seance. Palladino, so far as I am aware, was never tested in her own lodgings, but rather in laboratories, and the houses of the investigators. And to anyone who knows in detail the history of Spiritualism, her "performances" bear only a superficial resemblance with other mediums. Some of the most prominent magicians and scientists of the day came away profoundly impressed, if not convinced that she had some unknown "power".

dharlow,

As for the Taff article - I really don't know where to begin....it stinks to high heaven, and it ain't the smell of dead bodies. The woman is clearly psychologically unstable, and I strongly suspect some fraud on behalf of the sons. They never see the young daughter? Gee, I wonder in what cupboard she was hiding...

I'll just post this quote as an example of how credulous Taff seems:



Read the last sentence again, and tell me that Taff is a credible investigator.

Taff's article is merely a summary of the phenomena which was witnessed in the case. I mentioned the case simply to tie in some of the similarities in effects between poltergeist and physical mediumship phenomena, not because I think it in itself is strong evidence of paranormality. Of course, Taff can be contacted via the internet, as can Gaynor, for anyone interested in finding out more about it. The editor of Popular Photography took an interest in the case given that they were unable to explain the photographic effects capturing some of the lights.

dharlow,
These are the best examples? Like I said, I am disappointed.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, especially given that you didn't read the report on Palladino I mentioned. I did not list these cases (actually only the Palladino case...the Culver City case was simply for a more contemporary investigation) because I think they prove something paranormal. As mentioned in the thread I had started previously, these cases represent unsolved mysteries that are in need of a solution. Now some people in parapsychology do believe such cases prove psi, but they've often not investigated these cases in much detail, at least that I've found. I've been, and am still, searching through difficult-to-access archives in order to dredge up potentially new information on some of these cases. It is only through any new information that we can shed some new light on them.