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The Electric Revolution

Norman Alexander said:
We recently had solar panels and a battery installed on our house. We run an electric vehicle, and have electric central heating - both heavy power loads. Even so, it is a rare day that we use any mains power at all. Our solar system means we are pretty much self-sufficient. Our electric vehicle is charged up for free. Any surplus power goes back into the grid and we get a (nominal) credit for that. We are officially a "micro generator", not a "household consumer".

This is a common setup across Australia. Even major power-consuming facilities like our big hospitals use their roof acreage for panels, generating most of their own power and storing it in basement batteries.

Australia also has a major pumped-hydro scheme - Snowy 2 - coming online now. Yep, it was expensive, but it does produce steady dispatchable power across the grids.

Our biggest problem is our power grid, not our power production. Not all of it is "modern" enough to allow reliable delivery and we have plenty of places where there are no redundant deliver routes in case of failures. A few years ago during some storms there were major blackouts, not because "solar and wind failed" as the gutter yellow press claimed, but because the grid failed at some non-redundant points. So this needs to be emphasised: Power grids are the weak point for shared renewable power. Just chucking in tons of panels and batteries is only half the solution.
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This is where local solar farms with battery storage microgrids is a potential solution.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Well, we should, but we won't. The people in power have more financial advantage in fossil fuels so that's how it's going to be.
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Additionally, they will not voluntarily lower their prices, and profit margin. The sooner we go renewable, the sooner power shoots up to $50/kw for one bull ◊◊◊◊ reason or another.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Gosh. You guys with your sunshine! What power capacity is your solar installation? The 4kWh we generated today would be a drop in the bucket to charge a car.
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In the summer of 2024 I was running the car on the solar for a fair bit of the time. In Scotland. Then I got my export tariff which made it more sensible to export all the solar for 15p/unit and then charge the car and the house battery for 7p/unit overnight. I even export whatever is left in the battery in the late evening. Ker-ching.
 
Thermal said:
Additionally, they will not voluntarily lower their prices, and profit margin. The sooner we go renewable, the sooner power shoots up to $50/kw for one bull ◊◊◊◊ reason or another.
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Not to me.

I generate my own power because the electric company wanted to charge me $104,000 to hook my house up to the grid. I generate more than enough power from my solar panels 9 months of the year. I have been planning to triple my solar installation and battery bank. And it will be cheaper than the original installation. Hopefully, that will get me through the winter months. I use a propanev generator and firewood to make up the shortfall.
 
Nothing in law says I can't put a solar array and battery bank on my home. Nothing in law here requires me to feed back "extra" to the grid.
In fact I can pull the main and run off my own should I have a system. My grid bill would drop to zero as if nobody lived there.
 
acbytesla said:
Not to me.

I generate my own power because the electric company wanted to charge me $104,000 to hook my house up to the grid. I generate more than enough power from my solar panels 9 months of the year. I have been planning to triple my solar installation and battery bank. And it will be cheaper than the original installation. Hopefully, that will get me through the winter months. I use a propanev generator and firewood to make up the shortfall.
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Good for you! I wish I had those options, but my zoning restrictions prohibit them. We are at the mercy of public utility rates.

When residential solar got popular around here, the deal was simple. You sold the excess power back to the grid, which generally offset your night/winter usage and the owner paid something like $3/month to stay connected to the grid. Now, the deal.is you end up paying about half the grid rate.

Unless you are able to go truly off grid, experience tells me the end cost ain't going down, it's going up.
 
I'm offgrid now in Queensland- I get about 6kwh a day (from the temporary 1.5kw arrays 750w north and 750w west) in Summer, rising to about 7.5-8kwh a day in spring and autumn, and dropping down to about 5.5kwh a day in winter
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That feeds the 20kWh LYP lithium battery bank (16x400Ah 3.4v cells)
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That's sufficient to run the shed and the caravan- when I finish the house, that will get the rest of the panels (currently sitting in the shed) up on its roof, that will give me 18kw (6kw est, 6kw north and 6kw west) and will give me up to 95kWh a day in spring and autumn...

Even just on the current 'temporary' array, I cook on electric, this computer runs 24/7, and I use the electric blanket overnight in winter, and leave the fans running 24/7 in summer- I 'can' use the caravans A/C- but thats a struggle- not because of the AC- its just such a tiny array struggles to keep up with the AC demand and charge the battery bank as well its only 6 250w panels after all- when the house is done- the full 72 will be on its roof lol- and AC will be effortless.....
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Oh and it will be recharging an EV to boot lol

Wind really isn't worth the bother with small scale installs- most of the little sub 1kw units you see 'will' make their rated output....
In a cyclone....

Otherwise, nah- forget it- at best a stiff breeze might get you a hundred watts- maybe...

And the areas that are suitable for wind are not on top of your house (any obstructions will throw a 'wind deflection 3-5 times their height ie the air above them is turbulent, and thats bad for output....) so for a say 10m high house roof- you need to get the genny up 30-50m in the air on a tower!!!!
Anything lower puts it back into turbulent air, and that kills your production....
And unless you regularly get windspeeds of 10-15m/s your output wont be anywhere near the wind generators rated output....
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(a 15m/s wind is literally 'gale force') as in force 7 gale!!! and above 15m/s they shut down because of overspeed....

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I'd love one like that- but it still wouldnt have a wind genny on it- it would be too packed with my antennas lol
 
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Thermal said:
Good for you! I wish I had those options, but my zoning restrictions prohibit them. We are at the mercy of public utility rates.

When residential solar got popular around here, the deal was simple. You sold the excess power back to the grid, which generally offset your night/winter usage and the owner paid something like $3/month to stay connected to the grid. Now, the deal.is you end up paying about half the grid rate.

Unless you are able to go truly off grid, experience tells me the end cost ain't going down, it's going up.
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It shouldn't. A lot more people can go off grid because of lower solar cost, lower inverter/charger costs, and now lower battery cost. Seriously, I can buy 500 watt panels for what I paid for 250 watt panels 5 years ago. The racking is 50% the cost it use to be. Battery costs which easily was the most expensive components of my original install has dropped 70%. And that is with Lithium Phosphate batteries. I paid $2800 for each 5KWh server rack battery. Today you can buy them for $800. If the prices I see being touted for sodium phosphate batteries is real, we're looking at $200 maybe $250 each. The one component that is more expensive today is the cabling

The utility companies are making a big mistake fighting this. They are only pushing customers off the grid.
 
acbytesla said:
It shouldn't. A lot more people can go off grid because of lower solar cost, lower inverter/charger costs, and now lower battery cost. Seriously, I can buy 500 watt panels for what I paid for 250 watt panels 5 years ago. The racking is 50% the cost it use to be. Battery costs which easily was the most expensive components of my original install has dropped 70%. And that is with Lithium Phosphate batteries. I paid $2800 for each 5KWh server rack battery. Today you can buy them for $800. If the prices I see being touted for sodium phosphate batteries is real, we're looking at $200 maybe $250 each. The one component that is more expensive today is the cabling

The utility companies are making a big mistake fighting this. They are only pushing customers off the grid.
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In Australia 'hybrid' inverters systems are becoming the main form of solar installed- they can run as a gridtie, exporting excess power like a conventional gridtie system, but at night, your house runs off the inverters battery system (unless the battery goes too low, or the demand peaks above the inverters output rating- then it starts using the grid again)- the next day, the solar prioritises the battery recharge, and when thats full, only then does it go into 'gridtie' export mode...
Think of it as offgrid, but using the grid as the 'emergency generator'...

They are KILLING the older offgrid installs like mine- because you can get much better economy of scale with the hybrids (after all they are the most common new install in Australia) and you can use a hybrid as an 'offgrid install' it doesnt care, works exactly the same as it does on a grid tie connection lol

And it means that your standard solar installer knows the gear already, and carries spares etc- something that can be a hassle with 'conventional' offgrid systems like mine
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Something like this is literally 'just pick up the phone and call' install- even for an offgrid system- its a little smaller than mine (I got 20kWh of storage) but the BYD LV series are literally just 'keep adding drawers' each 'drawer' is another 4kw, and literally just plug into each other- no tools needed lol- so a '5 drawer system' is literally the exact same capacity as I have here like I showed up above...
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Dabop said:
In Australia 'hybrid' inverters systems are becoming the main form of solar installed- they can run as a gridtie, exporting excess power like a conventional gridtie system, but at night, your house runs off the inverters battery system (unless the battery goes too low, or the demand peaks above the inverters output rating- then it starts using the grid again)- the next day, the solar prioritises the battery recharge, and when thats full, only then does it go into 'gridtie' export mode...
Think of it as offgrid, but using the grid as the 'emergency generator'...

They are KILLING the older offgrid installs like mine- because you can get much better economy of scale with the hybrids (after all they are the most common new install in Australia) and you can use a hybrid as an 'offgrid install' it doesnt care, works exactly the same as it does on a grid tie connection lol

And it means that your standard solar installer knows the gear already, and carries spares etc- something that can be a hassle with 'conventional' offgrid systems like mine
Something like this is literally 'just pick up the phone and call' install- even for an offgrid system- its a little smaller than mine (I got 20kWh of storage) but the BYD LV series are literally just 'keep adding drawers' each 'drawer' is another 4kw, and literally just plug into each other- no tools needed lol- so a '5 drawer system' is literally the exact same capacity as I have here like I showed up above...
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I get it. They made it super easy.

Not sure of the price. But you usually pay for plug and play. I also don't like locking myself into a single company. But that looks slick.
 
BYD is one of the biggest LFP manufacturers in the world, making their batteries inhouse for their own EVs only until 'fairly recently'- they started selling EVs back in 2009 with their E6 SUV
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selling trucks from 2012 (as in real trucks, not overgrown utes)
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Buses (we bought BYD buses in Sydney, the first two arrived mid 2016)
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Semis since 2018 (this was the 100th sold in the US!!! went to Budweiser in the US in 2020 by this time they had sold over 12000 trucks worldwide....) https://insideevs.com/news/392058/byd-100-electric-truck-us/ note the date... that was when the Tesla semi was still a 'paper tiger' not even out of design lol
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They make a lot of LFP batteries- as in one of the biggest in the world...
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So yeah- pretty safe bet that they will be around... (considering they are outselling Tesla in Australia by 2:1- its a safer bet than buying a Tesla Powerwall lol)
 
I know who BYD is. The reason I don't like locking myself into one company isn't because they might go away. But because they usually are proprietary and I like flexibility when I add on. Also replacement parts tend to be more affordable.
 
We produced 25kwh yesterday and only used 7.

The payback time if we purchased batteries is around 10 years, which at our age is not quite justifiable. But it will be if government increased incentives.

Another way we could look at it is that houses with batteries increases in value more than the cost of the batteries. So if we did decide to sell soon, we will probably install batteries.
 
acbytesla said:
I know who BYD is. The reason I don't like locking myself into one company isn't because they might go away. But because they usually are proprietary and I like flexibility when I add on. Also replacement parts tend to be more affordable.
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I prefer DIY myself- but it isn't for everyone- many Aussie offgrid homes are exactly that- family homes, where they have minimal to no electrical knowledge at all- in which case a turnkey hybrid system is perfect- its reliable, parts and knowledge of its operation is widespread amongst installers- as far as the owners are concerned, its as close to 'the mains grid' as its possible to be while offgrid...

(their system is very flexible- each 'drawer' is a complete 48v 4kWh battery- expansion is as simple as lifting the controller 'top' off, and dropping on more battery 'drawers'...)
Each contains its own BMS and they can be daisychained up to truly massive battery banks....
lionking said:
I should have been more specific. It’s the US.
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That's who I was referring to as well lol- the US is going backwards- fast...
as in "The 'elephant' is....not....." (installing record amounts of renewables)
Then with the 'windmills causes cancer' moron in chief- not exactly surprising...

History will not be kind to trump and his magats, for so many reasons...
 
lionking said:
We produced 25kwh yesterday and only used 7.

The payback time if we purchased batteries is around 10 years, which at our age is not quite justifiable. But it will be if government increased incentives.

Another way we could look at it is that houses with batteries increases in value more than the cost of the batteries. So if we did decide to sell soon, we will probably install batteries.
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How did you figure that? It depends on what the utility is paying and how much you are paying for batteries and charger/inverter. .
Dabop showed a 7.6Kw inverter 12Kwh of battery storage for $8280. I can buy off brand 2ea 6KW (12KW) hybrid inverter chargers and 15KWh of server rack 48v batteries for $3200 off Amazon right now.

I want to add solar panels and increase the size of my battery bank. And buy an EV. But I knew battery prices would come down so I decided to wait.

If you're getting what the utility is charging for electricity, I get it. Hard to beat that.

But utilities in the US are changing their net metering schemes. This depends on the utility and the state. Some will take your surplus electricity and effectively not pay you anything for it.

I have serious doubts I will ever connect to the grid because of the connection costs. But my situation is a little unique.
 
Dabop said:
I prefer DIY myself- but it isn't for everyone- many Aussie offgrid homes are exactly that- family homes, where they have minimal to no electrical knowledge at all- in which case a turnkey hybrid system is perfect- its reliable, parts and knowledge of its operation is widespread amongst installers- as far as the owners are concerned, its as close to 'the mains grid' as its possible to be while offgrid...

(their system is very flexible- each 'drawer' is a complete 48v 4kWh battery- expansion is as simple as lifting the controller 'top' off, and dropping on more battery 'drawers'...)
Each contains its own BMS and they can be daisychained up to truly massive battery banks....

That's who I was referring to as well lol- the US is going backwards- fast...
as in "The 'elephant' is....not....." (installing record amounts of renewables)
Then with the 'windmills causes cancer' moron in chief- not exactly surprising...

History will not be kind to trump and his magats, for so many reasons...
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Don't get me started on Trump. He's so in the bag with the fossil fuel companies it makes me sick. The good news is that the change will happen whether he wants it to or not.
 
acbytesla said:
How did you figure that? It depends on what the utility is paying and how much you are paying for batteries and charger/inverter. .
Dabop showed a 7.6Kw inverter 12Kwh of battery storage for $8280. I can buy off brand 2ea 6KW (12KW) hybrid inverter chargers and 15KWh of server rack 48v batteries for $3200 off Amazon right now.

I want to add solar panels and increase the size of my battery bank. And buy an EV. But I knew battery prices would come down so I decided to wait.

If you're getting what the utility is charging for electricity, I get it. Hard to beat that.

But utilities in the US are changing their net metering schemes. This depends on the utility and the state. Some will take your surplus electricity and effectively not pay you anything for it.

I have serious doubts I will ever connect to the grid because of the connection costs. But my situation is a little unique.
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Remember thats $8280 AU dollars- thats about $5357.60 US
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And also remember- thats not a 'DIY' where you need to know what you are doing picking and choosing and then hooking it all up (correctly??? probably not from many of the DIY installs I have repaired over the years lol))- thats a 'pick up the phone and call someone' price- you literally need not know anything except 'I want electricity!!!'

Phone (or email), wait a few days max, they come in and do everything- and you are then to all intents as if you are ongrid- except you aren't....
 
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