The Disruption of the American Fascism's “Dr. Strangelove” Option

[SpitfireIX]

While the report of misconduct among USAF missile officers is alarming . . .

I concur that it's alarming, but the fact that the misconduct was discovered, and appropriate action taken, gives me some confidence that the system is working.

 

[turingtest]

I concur that it's alarming, but the fact that the misconduct was discovered, and appropriate action taken, gives me some confidence that the system is working.

And the fact that it was pretty freely reported should say something; that just doesn't seem like something a fascist system would allow (unless it was a really subtle fascism, which would amount to not being one at all).

 

[A_C_C]

Thanks for asking that it saved me from typing the same question - who did it and how?

I'm not Axxman, but I have heard that before... in a Tom Clancy novel, and based on, supposed allegations made by the FBI and the Justice Department in the '70s. Allegedly 8000 pounds of fissible material were "lost" in the '50s and '60s and ended in Israel with the complicity of teh CIA

I don't know the degree of truth of that as the only sources beyond the novel, "The Sum of all Fears", are conspiracy sites.

Edit: A couple sources, not from conspiracy sites:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/may/13/israels-bomb/

http://iranaffairs.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/israel_stole_uranium.jpg

Edit2: second link is to an Iran apologist site, sorry, but the scan seems legit.

 

[JayUtah]

And the fact that it was pretty freely reported should say something; that just doesn't seem like something a fascist system would allow[.]

Conspiracy theories seem to rely inordinately upon information provided freely by the targeted, at least to fuel the rumors, when by all rights according to the theory, it should be held secret. When conspiracy theorists are asked for confirmation, then all of a sudden it's the fault of the target for not being forthcoming with either confirmatory or exculpatory proof. So in short, the target of a conspiracy theory always seems to provide freely the finely-tuned amount of information to perpetuate, but not resolve, the accusation.

...(unless it was a really subtle fascism, which would amount to not being one at all).

Agreed; the hallmarks of fascism include totalitarianism and authoritarianism. "Subtle fascism" is an oxymoron.

 

[catsmate]

I'm not Axxman, but I have heard that before... in a Tom Clancy novel, and based on, supposed allegations made by the FBI and the Justice Department in the '70s. Allegedly 8000 pounds of fissible material were "lost" in the '50s and '60s and ended in Israel with the complicity of teh CIA

I don't know the degree of truth of that as the only sources beyond the novel, "The Sum of all Fears", are conspiracy sites.

Edit: A couple sources, not from conspiracy sites:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/may/13/israels-bomb/

http://iranaffairs.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/israel_stole_uranium.jpg

Edit2: second link is to an Iran apologist site, sorry, but the scan seems legit.

I believe it's a conflation of two separate stories, neither proven but both plausible and generally believed in the nuclear industry:
1. That the US facilitated the supply of uranium to Israel knowing it would be used in that country's nuclear weapons programme.
2. That China acquired the fissionable material for it's early weapons programme by suborning staff at the NUMEC facility in Apollo, Pennsylvania (where the loss of approximately sixty kilogrammes of ²³⁵U was discovered in 1965 and more later).

The former story is relatively unlikely in my opinion. The history of the Israeli nuclear programme is pretty well known; British and French assistance until the mid '60s, with France supplying uranium until '63, commercial purchases from Argentina and Gabon, and clandestine purchases from Katanga, and later large acquisitions from South Africa in exchange for assistance with their bomb programme. Today Israel uses the Negev deposits as technology now allows easier extraction.

 

[SpitfireIX]

And the fact that it was pretty freely reported should say something; that just doesn't seem like something a fascist system would allow (unless it was a really subtle fascism, which would amount to not being one at all).

Yes, I was thinking of that as I wrote; I should have discussed it in my comments.

Specifically, I heard something on NPR yesterday about how some surviving Red Guards have been trying to apologize for their actions during the Cultural Revolution, but the Chinese government is censoring them.

 

[SezMe]

Bostons Logan Airport(?) 9-11 Lots of former Israeli security worked there. It might still be true that there are no cameras there. This gap in the video data at Logan during 9-11 was filled with all kinds of conspiracy theories. Video and smuggling just don't go together. And Logan may have been a CIA transportation hub, so the cameras were intentionally missing so their people could travel without a video record.

Pretty weak tea.

 

[carlitos]

The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe.
--Tom Wolfe

 

[BrianH]

The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe.
--Tom Wolfe

Wolfe really hates Batman.

 

[Axxman300]

Would you mind citing a source for "we proved Israel's material came from our Tennessee plant" please? I've never heard this claim or story before.

Thanks

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal

The story sites a PA plant:

In fact, US involvement went deeper than mere silence. At a meeting in 1976 that has only recently become public knowledge, the CIA deputy director Carl Duckett informed a dozen officials from the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission that the agency suspected some of the fissile fuel in Israel's bombs was weapons-grade uranium stolen under America's nose from a processing plant in Pennsylvania.

Not only was an alarming amount of fissile material going missing at the company, Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation (Numec), but it had been visited by a veritable who's-who of Israeli intelligence, including Rafael Eitan, described by the firm as an Israeli defence ministry "chemist", but, in fact, a top Mossad operative who went on to head Lakam.

"It was a shock. Everyody was open-mouthed," recalls Victor Gilinsky, who was one of the American nuclear officials briefed by Duckett. "It was one of the most glaring cases of diverted nuclear material but the consequences appeared so awful for the people involved and for the US than nobody really wanted to find out what was going on."

The investigation was shelved and no charges were made.

The story references Israel's lone test off of South Africa. It is my understanding that the air-samples collected down-range was how we were able to identify the source of the material. N.E.S.T. has an in-house component for fissile ID, so we don't nuke the wrong country should the day come one of those weapons is used on one of our cities.

 

[HighRiser]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal

The story sites a PA plant:



The story references Israel's lone test off of South Africa. It is my understanding that the air-samples collected down-range was how we were able to identify the source of the material. N.E.S.T. has an in-house component for fissile ID, so we don't nuke the wrong country should the day come one of those weapons is used on one of our cities.

Thank you. No time today, but I'm looking forward to reading up on it.

 

[catsmate]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal

The story sites a PA plant:



The story references Israel's lone test off of South Africa. It is my understanding that the air-samples collected down-range was how we were able to identify the source of the material. N.E.S.T. has an in-house component for fissile ID, so we don't nuke the wrong country should the day come one of those weapons is used on one of our cities.

I'd describe that as garbage.
Firstly the evidence is that Israeli nuclear weapons are plutonium based, not HEU. Their cooperation with France was based around breeder reactor and chemical separation.
Secondly the Vale event was never shown to be a nuclear explosion and the post-Apartheid South African government has denied involvement in any such test; further there's no evidence of any atmospheric sampling being carried out by US agencies, and it wouldn't be done by NEST anyway but by the USAF.
Thirdly SA had no need to steal US HEU as they'd developed better methods than the US for isotope separation and had sufficient for their own needs.
Finally the Apollo plant was leaky in the extreme with material being lost up to 1976 (over 350kg in total). If material was stolen or diverted, and this is quite possible, China is as plausible a suspect as Israel; their first test donation ('596' in 1964) was a uranium bomb at a time when they did not appear to have sufficient isotope separation capability to fuel such a bomb.

 

[Horatius]

I'd describe that as garbage.

It might be garbage, but as a lesson for our resident CTists, it's at least plausible garbage. We have agents of a foreign power, acting in the best interests of their nation, engaging in covert operations that directly, and uncomplicatedly, promote those interests. No insanely baroque plans to do one thing and claim they did another, and then blame it all on a third party, all in pursuit of a goal that none of those things would advance. No superhero magical powers needed to pull it off, just plain old patriotism, greed and self-interest.

This is what real conspiracies look like, even if this one turns out not to be true. After all, even you admit that it might have been China making off with this material, and they would likely have done it in just about the same way.

 

[turingtest]

It might be garbage, but as a lesson for our resident CTists, it's at least plausible garbage. We have agents of a foreign power, acting in the best interests of their nation, engaging in covert operations that directly, and uncomplicatedly, promote those interests. No insanely baroque plans to do one thing and claim they did another, and then blame it all on a third party, all in pursuit of a goal that none of those things would advance. No superhero magical powers needed to pull it off, just plain old patriotism, greed and self-interest.

This is what real conspiracies look like, even if this one turns out not to be true. After all, even you admit that it might have been China making off with this material, and they would likely have done it in just about the same way.

If the kind of CTists we see so much of around here confined themselves within the limits of plausibility, they wouldn't be CTists; they wouldn't be having any of the fun that (IMO) is their real goal. They don't care about what's true, they really only care about seeing themselves as "The One" in their Matrix-type versions of reality. "Plausible" is mundane; can't have that.