The Deceit That Lies Behind Israeli Peace Negotiations

[Zero]

Short answer--no.

Long answer--anger is easy. Anger is the first emotion that strikes you when encountering injustice, and when you live a lifetime of injustice it builds up exponentially. The desire for vengeance is a natural result of this anger. When you've had your land stolen, you can't leave your village without passing through a "security checkpoint" where the bored guards have some fun at your expense, your family shot at, you live life as a prisoner instead of a free person...Vengeance is very, very easy to understand.

Is it logical? No. Rational? No. Does it help move the situation forward? No. But it's natural, and understandable.

Well, it may even be semi-logical...it certainly isn't practical. Then again, the Israeli reaction is almost exactly the same: lash out at someone. The thing about a suicide bomber is that he dies in the attack, leaving Israelis no one to blame directly. Add to that the paranoia, and the use of military to conduct what would more properly be police work, and you have violence that kills almost as many innocents as it does "suspected terrorists". And of course, Palestinians respond to THAT, in a cycle of violence that they have got to stop.

 

[Cleon]

Well, it may even be semi-logical...it certainly isn't practical. Then again, the Israeli reaction is almost exactly the same: lash out at someone. The thing about a suicide bomber is that he dies in the attack, leaving Israelis no one to blame directly. Add to that the paranoia, and the use of military to conduct what would more properly be police work, and you have violence that kills almost as many innocents as it does "suspected terrorists". And of course, Palestinians respond to THAT, in a cycle of violence that they have got to stop.

But then you have to ask, why should the Palestinians be the ones responsible to halt the cycle? They've got some rifles, dynamite, and grenades, while the Israelis have the fourth-most-powerful armed forces in the world. Funded, I might add, largely by our tax dollars (assuming you are USAnian).

From the Palestinians' perspective, they are defending themselves. Terrorist campaigns remain one of the few ways they can strike back. Israel has repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to fire at peaceful demonstrations (even demonstrations by Israelis!). That being the case, what do you think the result would be if Palestinians stopped any attempt at fighting back or defense?

 

[Zero]

But then you have to ask, why should the Palestinians be the ones responsible to halt the cycle? They've got some rifles, dynamite, and grenades, while the Israelis have the fourth-most-powerful armed forces in the world. Funded, I might add, largely by our tax dollars (assuming you are USAnian).

From the Palestinians' perspective, they are defending themselves. Terrorist campaigns remain one of the few ways they can strike back. Israel has repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to fire at peaceful demonstrations (even demonstrations by Israelis!). That being the case, what do you think the result would be if Palestinians stopped any attempt at fighting back or defense?

By "they", I meant both sides, in a general way.

On the other hand, I do hold Israel to a higher standard, because they have professional troops and equipment, and billions of American dollars.

 

[Cleopatra]

but must the Palestinians equate "justice" with "vengance"?

No they must not but for the moment this is the way the seem that they perceive Justice.

It's important to decide what they want though but I will expand on that later on my message.

And, of course, I wonder if it is the isolationism of the Jews which causes part of the problem(not blaming the victim, just trying to isolate any possible source of antagonism?

I did not understand this question.

And who were the people who thought that clustering the Jews in what is now Israel was a good idea, security-wise?

There are two answers to that , the two of them lead to the same end though: 1. Those who procecuted Jews made them believe that the solution to the problem is the creation of the Jewish State.
2. The problems that the emancipation of the Jews caused in the western societies during the 19th ce, and in relation with the general spirit that favoured the creation of national states, introduced the idea of a jewish state.

I have said it before. I do not blame Zionists but if I have to blame them for something is that they saw Jews with the eyes of the enemy. They saw them as nation but I don't know if I wouldn't do the same if I was in their shoes. 2000 years of procecutions are too much.

Cleon:But then you have to ask, why should the Palestinians be the ones responsible to halt the cycle? They've got some rifles, dynamite, and grenades, while the Israelis have the fourth-most-powerful armed forces in the world. Funded, I might add, largely by our tax dollars (assuming you are USAnian).

I disagree with this approach not because you say something inaccurate but because this approach reflects the mentality that demon presented in his opening post. This approach requires for Justice and not for peace. Also, there is another issue here. I don't really accept the notion of some Palestinians that are poor and they only have some riffles. Are Palestinians part of the Arab world? Do they act in the context of the big Arab family? What's the deal with the Palestinians and the Arab world?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleon
But then you have to ask, why should the Palestinians be the ones responsible to halt the cycle? They've got some rifles, dynamite, and grenades, while the Israelis have the fourth-most-powerful armed forces in the world. Funded, I might add, largely by our tax dollars (assuming you are USAnian).

Because you should expect civilized behavior from both sides, and if you only expect civilized behavior from the Israelis, then you're guilty of anti-Arab racism.

Can you name another conflict in the world where being the weaker side would be considered a valid reason to continue fighting? This sort of logic just boggles my mind.

 

[Cleon]

I disagree with this approach not because you say something inaccurate but because this approach reflects the mentality that demon presented in his opening post.

Should I be insulted?

This approach requires for Justice and not for peace.

I seriously and honestly believe that true peace requires justice.

Also, there is another issue here. I don't really accept the notion of some Palestinians that are poor and they only have some riffles. Are Palestinians part of the Arab world? Do they act in the context of the big Arab family? What's the deal with the Palestinians and the Arab world?

Whoa. Long question.

Palestinians are hyper-exploited. On the one hand, they get exploited by the Israelis. On the other, their cause is exploited by various Arab governments that--to be quite frank--could give a damn about them one way or the other. These governments use the Palestinians for a myriad of purposes; to keep the populace focusing on something OTHER than the incompetence of their government, to play for power in the region, etc. There's widespread support for Palestinians in the Arab world, but the Arab governments' attitudes towards the Palestinians are purely in the eyes of self-interest.

 

[Zero]

No they must not but for the moment this is the way the seem that they perceive Justice.

It's important to decide what they want though but I will expand on that later on my message.



I did not understand this question.



There are two answers to that , the two of them lead to the same end though: 1. Those who procecuted Jews made them believe that the solution to the problem is the creation of the Jewish State.
2. The problems that the emancipation of the Jews caused in the western societies during the 19th ce, and in relation with the general spirit that favoured the creation of national states, introduced the idea of a jewish state.

I have said it before. I do not blame Zionists but if I have to blame them for something is that they saw Jews with the eyes of the enemy. They saw them as nation but I don't know if I wouldn't do the same if I was in their shoes. 2000 years of procecutions are too much.

I am not questioning the creation of a Jewish state(not here, anyways), but let's be honest: the location sucks! More on this in answer to the next part...

I disagree with this approach not because you say something inaccurate but because this approach reflects the mentality that demon presented in his opening post. This approach requires for Justice and not for peace. Also, there is another issue here. I don't really accept the notion of some Palestinians that are poor and they only have some riffles. Are Palestinians part of the Arab world? Do they act in the context of the big Arab family? What's the deal with the Palestinians and the Arab world?

I don't think Palestinians are really part of the Arab world. I think that the rest of the Arabs like having a chaotic buffer between Israel and the rest of the ME. By the same token, I feel that there was a certain amount of political tactics involved of putting a pro-West nation in the middle of the richest oil fields in the world. To a certain extent, I feel like both sides are being manipulated for the benefit of others.

 

[Zero]

Because you should expect civilized behavior from both sides, and if you only expect civilized behavior from the Israelis, then you're guilty of anti-Arab racism.

Can you name another conflict in the world where being the weaker side would be considered a valid reason to continue fighting? This sort of logic just boggles my mind.

Of course, that goes both ways...we cannot excuse any "negative" behavior of one side simply because someone on the other side is guilty of it.

 

[demon]

Cleo:
"Middle East is the field that one can demonstrate exactly how we cannot have what you ask for. Don't expect Justice if you want Peace."
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I find this both a disappointing and astonishing statement.
I would suggest that justice is a precursor to peace, without a sense of justice people will never be at peace with themselves or their neighbours.
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Cleo:
"Justice predisposes two things for the Palestinians. 1. They will decide to devote themselves to an endless war. 2. They will expand this war to the Arab countries that have betrayed them.

You might have Justice if you keep "punishing" those who harmed you but for how long you are willing to do that? You raise soldiers in Palestine demon, Palestine doesn't need only soldiers and a good peace plan to survive but it needs teachers, doctors, lawyers, scientists, people that they will build a new country. The only way to achieve Justice is to continue the war but for how long Palestinians will accept to live with no future."
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There are many other things which you need in order to build a new country. The rule of law for a start. And you only get that when you control your own roads and borders.

You seem to be saying that justice is something you get through vengeance. I beg to differ. Perhaps justice is something you get given, through acceptance of truth and through reconciliation. Whilst Israel takes the stance it does then I suspect endless violence will be the favoured option for the weaker side.
I feel you misunderstand the motives behind the Palestinian resistance if you think it`s motive is vengeance etc… when groups like the Irish Nationalists, French Resistance, Palestinians etc… come up against an un-equal and unyielding power such as Israel then guerilla war and terrorism has been shown to be a very effective agents for change, in the short term. There is a natural preference of course for peaceful protest as in India because violent change results in an unstable and short-term truces. The truth of this can be see in the creation of the state of Israel itself. It was born from the womb of violence, terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

"Punishing those who harmed you" is a misleading phrase. It suggests that all the Israeli crimes were in the past, and perhaps we should all move on. In reality the opression and persecution of the Palestinians contines on a daily basis. Their water is stolen, they are forced into exile with no rights in their places of refuge and their land continues to be stolen and sliced up with apartheid roads.
What you call "punishment" is in reality self-defence.

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Cleo:
"You said that Israelis want Peace in order to get rid of the problem. Yes this is true but what do you expect from the other side? Don't forget that Israelis are paying and they are going to pay a really high price for this peace."
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Get real. The price the Israelis pay is for their own crimes. The price the Palestinians pay is for being in the way.
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Cleo:
"For Israel,things have arrived to a point that we can't have peace and live in a Democratic State the same time. This thought devastates me but I cannot fool myself. A secure Israeli State is only a secure Jewish State.There is no way to live with the Arabs before 100 years-- at least--pass. We established this State in order we have a safe place on earth for the Jews. We established this state in order to live in safety and our social experience so far has demonstated that we can achieve that only when we live together. Safety is our basic problem."
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Thank Christ the Palestinians don't have to worry about anything like that eh?

As for your remark about 100 years, this is pure supposition and sounds to me like you simply don't want to entertain the concept of treating Arabs as human beings.

Again, I appeal for Israelis to do a role reversal here.
What is the price that others have had to pay for the safety of Israel and Jews? Is it right that others should be dispossessed in order that Jewish people can construct a place of safety? This is much like a mugger justifying his actions by saying that his family would be destitute and on the streets if it were not for his actions. First of all this approach leaves the plight of the victims as unworthy of consideration or at least of lesser importance, (tribalism versus ethics again), and it also places other options for resolving the muggers predicament as out of scope.
As for the impossibility of having peace and living in a Democratic state at the same time, how do they know? Have they ever tried it?
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Cleo:
"How about this as Justice demon? How just is not be able to live among other people if you don't deny who you are? How Just sounds to you to be constantly chased for something you haven't chosen--because none choses in what family he is born. How Just is to have to live close to other jews if you want to keep your life?"
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Foolishness. In the Middle East Israelis are not attacked for their Judaism. They are attacked in retaliation for their crimes. If you wish to look for a track record of anti-Semitism, then check out the Christians. The Moslem world, by and large, never had a problem with the Jews.

Again, in order to construct a solution to the problems that Jewry has faced others have to suffer. It also excludes from the discussion any other possible solution.
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Cleo:
"This is exactly what Peace requires for;that both parties forget about Justice and think about the future generations
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I`m afraid you are underestimating the need for justice in any comprehensive solution to this situation. Its necessity has been clearly identified in other areas of conflict including the North of Ireland and South Africa. Just as there can be no peace without justice, there can be no justice without equality either.

An example of peace without justice and equality is slavery. It seems it's this kind of peace, the calm, quiescence and security many Israeli-Jews are hoping for and would find acceptable, since they are not prepared to see and treat Palestinians as human beings equal to themselves.

It's very easy to talk about forgetting about justice when you are the criminal. I am sure every thief ever born would love to forget about justice and look to the future.

 

[Cleopatra]

I have been thinking about this discussion a lot lately because Cyprus is passing tragic moments right now. The Anglosaxon collonialists that they think that we still live in the 20ies try to enforce a Peace Plan that violates every judicial code from the era of Gilgamesh...

The Cypriots have never harmed anybody. They have been fighting in silence and with dignity to find a solution to this tragic situation and yet they won't find Justice. How is that?

As I already posted in this thread, there is no justice in this world. Justice becomes a problem of the poor that steal something or of the desperate that grab a gun and murder somebody.

The world sucks. Period.

 

[LuxFerum]

As I already posted in this thread, there is no justice in this world. Justice becomes a problem of the poor that steal something or of the desperate that grab a gun and murder somebody.

The world sucks. Period.

Soooo, that is your reaction when you have to face injustice.

"oh, cruel world, there is no justice, no hope, what have I done to deserve this?"


I was expecting a little bit more from you.

 

[Cleopatra]

Soooo, that is your reaction when you have to face injustice.

"oh, cruel world, there is no justice, no hope, what have I done to deserve this?"

I don't wear a jacket with explosives though to force the others to accept my idea about justice.

I was expecting a little bit more from you.

Like what?

 

[LuxFerum]

Like what?

You are the lawyer, you are the one supposed to give assistance to someone who had suffer injustice.
I dunno
Can't you just sue someone?

 

[Cleopatra]

You are the lawyer, you are the one supposed to give assistance to someone who had suffer injustice.
I dunno
Can't you just sue someone?

First of all a lawyer's job is not to ....cure injustice. Second I made an observation, in another thread I explained to demon what many Cypriots did.

But no definetely I cannot sue the Secretary General of UN.

 

[LuxFerum]

Why exactly Cypriots wont get justice?
Because they won't be allowed to go back to theirs previous homes in the other side of the Island?

Can a treaty aproved by the UN violate human rights?

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

 

[Chaos]

Cleopatra

First of all a lawyer's job is not to ....cure injustice.

Then what else is a lawyer´s job?

I hired a lawyer myself a year ago, because I was (and still am) convinced the Workers´ Accident insurance treated me unjustly and I could not do anything about it on my own. I hired the lawyer to help me correct this injustice. (And, incidentally , get back my disability benefits)

 

[demon]

"The Cypriots have never harmed anybody"

Lets not forget EOKA.

"I don't wear a jacket with explosives though to force the others to accept my idea about justice."

You prefer Apache gunships firing rockets in the main squares of some of the most densely populated areas on earth to force others to accept your idea about justice?