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the case for nuclear power

andyandy

anthropomorphic ape
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
8,377
inspired by this breaking news in the UK....

A High Court judge has ordered a rethink of the government's nuclear power plans, after a legal challenge by environmental campaigners Greenpeace.
A judge ruled that the consultation process before making the decision last year had been "misleading", "seriously flawed" and "procedurally unfair".

Greenpeace said the ministers should "go back to the drawing board".

Industry Secretary Alistair Darling said the government would re-consult, but still favoured nuclear power.

The government also stressed that the judge's ruling was on the "process of consultation, not the principle of nuclear power".

In 2003, the Energy White Paper described nuclear power as an "unattractive option".

It said before any decision was taken to build more stations, there would have to be "the fullest possibly public consultation and the publication of a further white paper setting out our proposals."

The government launched a fresh energy review in January 2006, and after public consultation in July published a report, The Energy Challenge, which said "new nuclear power stations would make a significant contribution to meeting our energy policy goals".

In court, Greenpeace said the consultation had not fulfilled the promise to carry out "the fullest public consultation".

It complained that there had been a failure to present clear proposals and information on key issues, such as disposal of radioactive waste and building costs.

The judge said information given on waste had been "not merely inadequate but also misleading".

Fairness required that consultees should be given a proper opportunity to respond to that substantial amount of new material before any decision was taken.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6364281.stm

I wonder - what is the case for nuclear power? Do the benefits outweigh the costs? It seems to me that the first generation power plants' cost per energy produced is going to be incredibly high, when decommisioning costs are taken into account - so will the second generation power plants be more cost effective? How much of a premium are we paying for non-carbon based energy?
 
...And how much raw material is there available and do we have to buy it from region of the world controlled by religious nut-jobs?
 
And will politicians, influenced by businesses, electorates, NGOs, and—well—politics (including the "geo-" variety), correctly assess the costs and benefits?

If they get it wrong, in which direction will they be wrong? And why?
 
Can this thread be entirely sustained by questions? :D
 
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My main problem with nuclear power is that no one has ever really figured out what to do with the radioactive waste.

Until that is resolved, I have real problems with nuclear power.
 
My main problem with nuclear power is that no one has ever really figured out what to do with the radioactive waste.

Until that is resolved, I have real problems with nuclear power.
The idea of launching it into the sun has always interested me.
 
The idea of launching it into the sun has always interested me.

Yeah, and the rocket goes ziggy-zag at launch and blows up scattering nuclear waste all over the place.

Also, have you considered the cost of launching a kilogram of waste and the shielding needed to load and transport it safely?

Bad idea both economically as well as from a safety point of view.
 
My main problem with nuclear power is that no one has ever really figured out what to do with the radioactive waste.

Until that is resolved, I have real problems with nuclear power.
No, it is well known what to do w/ the radiactive waste. Bury it deeply in unpopulated areas. A far better solution, IMHO, than dispersing it in the atmosphere as is done w/ burning fossil fuels. When compared to the environmental destruction of coal, oil, ethanol or biodiesel nukes win hands down. They require a far smaller footprint than wind or solar power, and don't destroy entire riparian ecosystems as does hydroelectric power.

Energy production requires tradeoffs, and the way I see it nukes are the best available option currently.
 
How much is there to launch?

I believe that the really, really dangerously radioactive stuff makes up less than half of 1% of the total waste, but I don't know what that is in terms of tonnage.

It is a problem to get rid of, because nobody wants a nuclear dump in their back yard. Could we not dump it in the very deepest parts of the ocean? I appreciate that this would undoubtedly be unpopular with environmentalists, but it would at least be nicely out of the way. Is there a physical problem with trying to do that that I'm unaware of?

Edited to add: Incidentally, I think that we in Britain do need nuclear power. There simply isn't a good enough alternative available. Modern reactors are (I'm told) orders of magnitude better in terms of efficiency and safety than the old style ones. Mind you I'm in Scotland where there is currently a good deal of political antipathy to building new reactors, so I don't think we're likely to see any new ones any time soon.
 
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...And how much raw material is there available and do we have to buy it from region of the world controlled by religious nut-jobs?

Answer:

From my quick research Canada produces the most Uranium, followed by Australia. The list of big producers gets a lot worse (w.r.t. regional political instability) after these two though:

Kazakhstan
Russia
Namibia
Niger
Uzbekistan
 
A typical nuclear power plant produces less than 30 tonnes of waste per year. Most of that is not really waste, though, as fuel reprocessing would allow more than 90% of that to be made into new fuel. Less than 4% of the spent fuel is actual waste (fission products) that have to be stored. If we were to reprocess fuel like the French and the Japanese, then a reactor would only produce about 2 tonnes of waste per year.

Spent fuel is not unusable because the fissionable fuel is used up. The reason spent fuel in its current state is unusable is because many of the fission products generated during normal operation are very good neutron absorbers ("poisons" if you want to use the industry lingo). If spent fuel were put back into the core, the operators would not be able to keep the reactor at power because the number of neutrons absorbed by these poisons would prevent enough fissions from occurring. Reprocessing allows for the separation of fission products and fissionable fuel. Once this is done, the fissionable fuel can be put back into the core. This process greatly reduces the quantity of waste (but not the radioactivity, as the fissionable Uranium that is removed is barely radioactive), and it also would allow much more energy to be extracted from a given amount of Uranium.

We don't reprocess for several reasons. Obviously, the politics are one reason. But the biggest reason is economics. Uranium is so abundant and so cheap right now, there is no reason to build a reprocessing plant when it would be cheaper to simply buy new fuel. Once the market changes, though, reprocessing can become more appealing. If and when this happens, spent fuel repositories will actually be used as sources of new fuel.

As for what to do with the fuel, we already have a solution. We can store waste in remote national repositories until it is advantageous to reprocess it. The problem is that certain groups like Greenpeace would rather exploit the problem than solve it. They don't want national repositories because they know that a solution to the waste problem will increase the popularity of nuclear power. It is tactics like this that have driven people like Patrick Moore (a co-founder of Greenpeace) out of that group and into environmental groups that support nuclear power.

The worst thing about this debate is that people look at nuclear power in isolation too much. Yes, waste is an issue, but it is less of an issue than it is with other sources of electricity. Nuclear power plants collect, catalog, and store all the waste they produce. Then we all bicker and argue over what to do with it. Coal and natural gas plants simply vent most of their waste into the atmosphere, dust their hands off, and say "see, we don't have a waste problem!"

The bottom line is that there are only three technologies are practical and available right now that can expand electricity production -- natural gas, coal, and nuclear power. Natural gas and coal spew toxic waste and greenhouse gases into our atmosphere, and that is when the plants are functioning exactly as they should. The US gets a little more than 50% of its electricity from coal, and those plants produce as much carbon dioxide and more toxic pollutants than all the cars in the US combined. These pollutants kill people and damage the environment every day. Nuclear plants seal up their waste so that it can be stored where it will cause the minimum harm to people and to the eco-system.

As for cost, nuclear power is competitive with natural gas in terms of cost per unit of power produced. That accounts for construction, operation, waste storage, and decommission (nuclear plants in the US pay a tax that goes towards waste storage and decommission). Since waste is controlled and stored, the cost for nuclear includes externalities. Coal and natural gas do not account for externalities when they calculate a cost per unit power. How much more do you think these power sources would cost if plants had to pay for people dying of lung cancer or suffering from asthma?

That is the case for nuclear power. Nobody knowledgeable claims it is perfect, but it is by far the best choice we have. Coal and natural gas (and oil where it is used for electricity) are literally killing us. Hydro is tapped out in most developed nations. Nuclear is statistically safer than all other major electricity sources (in terms of deaths per unit power produced). In light of this, the waste "problem" to which we already have viable solutions seems rather tiny.

--

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a nuclear engineer who is employed by a nuclear vendor (a company that designs and supports nuclear plants). I am not speaking as a representative of my company, but rather as an individual with above average knowledge on the subject.
 
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pvt1863,

I agree with your comment but note that one of the additional factors, besides cost of reprocessing, is proliferation risks associated with re-processing. Covert reprocessing for WG 239Pu extraction is easier to detect with a once-through, high burn, fuel cycle. Eventually this will have to be solved and doing so will vastly expand available energy.
 
pvt1863,

I agree with your comment but note that one of the additional factors, besides cost of reprocessing, is proliferation risks associated with re-processing. Covert reprocessing for WG 239Pu extraction is easier to detect with a once-through, high burn, fuel cycle. Eventually this will have to be solved and doing so will vastly expand available energy.

Generaly the solution is to have it done by countries that already have large stock of plutonium.
 
Another twist in the waste storage debate is a tradeoff between known vs. unknown sites.

A radioactive waste dump can be toxic for a long time. Like longer than many civilizations with their languages and writing systems. So how do you set up a message that someone ten thousand years in the future can interpret as "Danger: travelling through this area will kill you"?

Also, if the technology comes along to do something explosive with these materials (or even today's technology of a dirty bomb), and the political climate in the territory where the waste is stored changes dramatically, the new leaders have ready access to highly toxic materials.

On the other hand, if you hide the sites in such a way that the knowledge of where they are is lost, future populations might find themselves living in toxic zones. Or get exiled there.

CBC radio's science program Quirks and Quarks covered the topic of nuclear waste back in 2004 in their segment Nuclear Waste - Burying a Problem, or a Solution? (MP3, 28 minutes, 12.6 megabytes)
 
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Answer:

From my quick research Canada produces the most Uranium, followed by Australia. The list of big producers gets a lot worse (w.r.t. regional political instability) after these two though:

Kazakhstan
Russia
Namibia
Niger
Uzbekistan
And I am willing to be told I am wrong but I recall that Britain has a quite large, though low grade, ore deposit of uranium on either Shetland or Orkney. Also, uranium is about as common as lead but does not form ores so readily. Thus, fairly low concentrations of uranium are quite common.
 
No, it is well known what to do w/ the radiactive waste. Bury it deeply in unpopulated areas. A far better solution, IMHO, than dispersing it in the atmosphere as is done w/ burning fossil fuels. When compared to the environmental destruction of coal, oil, ethanol or biodiesel nukes win hands down. They require a far smaller footprint than wind or solar power, and don't destroy entire riparian ecosystems as does hydroelectric power.

Energy production requires tradeoffs, and the way I see it nukes are the best available option currently.

Well, if the burying solution was indeed a viable solution, then it would have been done decades ago. However, since this not been done it shows that burying the waste is not a viable solution.
 

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