The Case Against Immortality

So, (and if I'm not being fair, please let me know) your position is, basically, "Let's see if I can slip an 'I'll believe whatever I want' into his argument without anyone noticing. That way, I can belittle it in the standard ways that one belittles belief, and everyone will think I've actually belittled his real argument."

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, of course.

Amusing. You could have, of course, corrected my misunderstanding, if it was in fact a misunderstanding, given that I did openly state that that was a real possibility. Instead, you decided to attempt to divert the conversation with something that was quite irrelevant. You might want to look at what you wrote again and see if it's not just you trying to project your own attitude onto me. So, here's your chance again. Feel free to clarify your position without resorting to obvious attempts to provoke, and address what I actually said, for that matter.
 
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So, (and if I'm not being fair, please let me know) your position is, basically, "Let's see if I can slip an 'I'll believe whatever I want' into his argument without anyone noticing.
From what you've written here, it appears to be a sound and reasonable summation of your position. If you want people to come to some other conclusion, you might be best served by not posting so much nonsense.
 
Amusing. You could have, of course, corrected my misunderstanding, if it was in fact a misunderstanding, given that I did openly state that that was a real possibility. Instead, you decided to attempt to divert the conversation with something that was quite irrelevant. You might want to look at what you wrote again and see if it's not just you trying to project your own attitude onto me. So, here's your chance again. Feel free to clarify your position without resorting to obvious attempts to provoke, and address what I actually said, for that matter.

All right. I got the feeling that you were making a disingenuous attempt to suggest that the only reason that I didn't accept the extinction hypothesis (in light of all the evidence that supports it) was that I didn't have the courage, taking refuge in a "whatever I want" belief that I found more comfortable. In other words, to inject a popular straw man into the argument and then reduce it to the ridiculous. Perhaps you didn't do this intentionally, and if you are saying as much I apologize for my reaction.

But it is you who are injecting the concept of belief into my arguments. My position is "we don't know," yes. People can believe whatever they want, too. But I say we don't know if those beliefs are true or not. I believe that people create beliefs about what happens when we die in order to alleviate fear of the unknown. Perhaps we agree there. But again, my entire position is that what happens after we die is unknowable. I don't manufacture "any belief I want to" to fill that void. I don't find that comfortable, either, but comfortable is overrated anyway.
 
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From what you've written here, it appears to be a sound and reasonable summation of your position. If you want people to come to some other conclusion, you might be best served by not posting so much nonsense.

I will say here that I am ignorant of what happens to us when we die. Show me if you would anything in my position that contradicts that statement. If you can't do that, please explain why you find Aridas's post to be a sound and reasonable summation of my position. For example, you could elaborate on how this position "treads on very shaky grounds...when dealing with truth." You could also explain why it is comfortable to live with fear of the unknown.
 
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Removed at member's request.
 
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If you want to talk philosophy, you'd better take it up with someone else, as I have very little background in that subject.
Fair enough. As I said before, however, philosophers deserve a place at the table. Logical arguments that disagree with empirical evidence shouldn't be dismissed for that reason alone.

For example, when I was a young man, I drove past some kid sitting on top of a guy pinning him down while three other kids watched. I drove on, thinking they were just some kids fighting. I had a weird feeling a minute later, and drove back to look. The street was empty, so I turned around again and drove off. A minute later I heard sirens and went back again. When I got there, the man who was pinned down was still where he had been and someone was giving him CPR. The "weird feeling" was actually hearing five shots, and in the empty street a man actually lay dying. I was there alone with him and I wasn't able to process that. At some subconscious level, I had to invent another experience to replace it.

If the mind is capable of substituting a fantasy and making it into a memory, then one could logically ask if all experiences were a fantasy. If experience is potentially unreal, then all data derived by observation and experience are potentially invalid. If such data are possibly invalid, a null hypothesis that relies on them isn't as strong as one that doesn't.

So for the present I'm sticking with the idea that what happens to us when we die is unknowable.
 
All right. I got the feeling that you were making a disingenuous attempt to suggest that the only reason that I didn't accept the extinction hypothesis (in light of all the evidence that supports it) was that I didn't have the courage, taking refuge in a "whatever I want" belief that I found more comfortable.

Luckily for my integrity, I was not saying that. I was simply attempting to accurately portray what appeared to be your position, based on what I had seen of what you've said. The belief that happiness is a valid criteria for determining what is useful to believe about reality, for example, is a rather common belief among those who hold the cited position.

As a general matter, even if you did hold that position, I would neither look down on you for holding it or even care that you did. I don't tend to care what people believe, with the minor exception of beliefs that directly affect me. I do, however, care when bad arguments are put forward in support of a position. Without rereading all the relevant material to verify, I may have been partially confusing your position with a somewhat similar position held in a different thread by someone as I was likely rather tired around the time that I posted. As it was, it quite appeared that you were equivocating between the quality of logic required for mathematical proofs and the quality of logic found in the arguments for why there's any reason to accept either that there's an afterlife or that there's any reason to accept that any unsupported and unfalsifiable arguments are particularly worth accepting as either the case or worthy of concern.

In other words, to inject a popular straw man into the argument and then reduce it to the ridiculous. Perhaps you didn't do this intentionally, and if you are saying as much I apologize for my reaction.

I'd argue that I didn't do it at all, though I admit that I can see how you might make the mistake of thinking that I did. I can freely admit that I don't know whether there's an afterlife if asked, for the record. I would likely add that I really can't care whether there is, though, if we have no reasonable ways of knowing anything about it or whether it exists in the first place. That said, the extinction hypothesis that you referred to is the most logical position to hold, based on the evidence, or lack thereof, and parsimony, and thus is the best option to act upon as if it is the case.

It's worth pointing out, as well, that "know" is frequently used in somewhat different ways. Absolute certainty is a nice way to use it, but bears little relevance to ways that it's relevant for practical purposes. Absolute certainty is not really a reasonable requirement for anything, after all, and is certainly not worth becoming uncomfortable about. As fallible beings, we do tend to be wrong about all kinds of things. There's no shame in that, but there's also no reason to act as if the most logical position, when taking the whole picture into account, isn't the best one to hold.

But it is you who are injecting the concept of belief into my arguments. My position is "we don't know," yes. People can believe whatever they want, too. But I say we don't know if those beliefs are true or not. I believe that people create beliefs about what happens when we die in order to alleviate fear of the unknown. Perhaps we agree there. But again, my entire position is that what happens after we die is unknowable. I don't manufacture "any belief I want to" to fill that void. I don't find that comfortable, either, but comfortable is overrated anyway.

My apologies if I actually did inject the concept of belief into your argument, though I think I've presented reason for how I reached that conclusion. Hmm. I think that I've addressed all the other points that I had that are particularly worth covering in response to this part earlier in this post, so I'll be a bit less verbose here.
 
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If the mind is capable of substituting a fantasy and making it into a memory, then one could logically ask if all experiences were a fantasy. If experience is potentially unreal, then all data derived by observation and experience are potentially invalid. If such data are possibly invalid, a null hypothesis that relies on them isn't as strong as one that doesn't.

One can logically ask that, regardless. Understanding that general concept is one of the reasons that I like solipsism. That said, while it is an interesting concept, all we can ever reasonably do is act upon the information at our disposal, even if some of that information might be incorrect or arbitrary.

ETA: Going further, the scientific method is set up the way it is with the rather specific intent to eliminate as much inherent unreliability as possible, though there will always be unfalsifiable possibilities in play, like the concept invoked by the Omphalos hypothesis. Again, absolute certainty that something is the case is not a reasonable requirement for holding a position.
 
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I will say here that I am ignorant of what happens to us when we die. Show me if you would anything in my position that contradicts that statement. If you can't do that, please explain why you find Aridas's post to be a sound and reasonable summation of my position.

She meant that what you wrote in that post is a reasonable summation of your position. :rolleyes:

I happen to agree.

For example, you could elaborate on how this position "treads on very shaky grounds...when dealing with truth."

Your position is like saying you got 50% chance of winning the lottery, because you either do or don't, ignoring the procedure of selecting a winner that would allow you to assess the probability much more precisely.

The fact is that while you may argue that we're not completely sure what happens when we die, you cannot just brush all the evidence under the carpet and claim that it's perfectly reasonable to withhold judgement. It is not. All evidence points to the fact that when we die, we cease to exist. Period.

You could also explain why it is comfortable to live with fear of the unknown.

Who said anything like that?
 
If the mind is capable of substituting a fantasy and making it into a memory, then one could logically ask if all experiences were a fantasy. If experience is potentially unreal, then all data derived by observation and experience are potentially invalid. If such data are possibly invalid, a null hypothesis that relies on them isn't as strong as one that doesn't.

Here you go again with the solipsism. Drop it. It's boring, completely useless and retarded.
 
Here you go again with the solipsism. Drop it. It's boring, completely useless and retarded.

To differ a bit on solipsism... Boring is a matter of opinion. Feel free to consider it such. It's useless for all practical purposes, given that any potential usefulness is negated by the necessary base assumptions that we employ when interacting with what we perceive to be reality, but not completely useless, given that it does illustrate the inherent uncertainty associated with the subjective interpretations of reality that we all must employ. I completely disagree with the retarded claim, though.
 
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To differ a bit on solipsism... Boring is a matter of opinion. Feel free to consider it such. It's useless for all practical purposes, given that any potential usefulness is negated by the necessary base assumptions that we employ when interacting with what we perceive to be reality, but not completely useless, given that it does illustrate the inherent uncertainty associated with the subjective interpretations of reality that we all must employ. I completely disagree with the retarded claim, though.

Let me rephrase. Solipsism is boring to be brought up whenever you find yourself in the corner by an argument you can't defend otherwise. It's retarded in the same situation as well.

The only situation when it's not boring is the first time one hears/thinks about it. Then 10 minutes pass and it becomes boring, useless and retarded to consider.
 
Here you go again with the solipsism. Drop it. It's boring, completely useless and retarded.

Where from my quote do you derive the idea that I'm saying that only my mind is sure to exist? Also, I believe I responded satisfactorily to the accusation the last time you made it, since you apparently had nothing to say to my response. So how is it that I'm going at it "again"?
 
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She meant that what you wrote in that post is a reasonable summation of your position. :rolleyes:

I happen to agree.
As far as I can see I didn't make any summation of my position. But ok, we'll agree to disagree.

Your position is like saying you got 50% chance of winning the lottery, because you either do or don't, ignoring the procedure of selecting a winner that would allow you to assess the probability much more precisely.
Well, it's a little like that. But of course, we have all kinds of a posteriori evidence about what happens when we win the lottery. We have none about what happens after we die.
The fact is that while you may argue that we're not completely sure what happens when we die, you cannot just brush all the evidence under the carpet and claim that it's perfectly reasonable to withhold judgement.
Watch me. It's perfectly reasonable to withhold judgment. In fact, it's even more reasonable than not withholding judgment. QED.
It is not.
Is so.
All evidence points to the fact that when we die, we cease to exist. Period.
Which doesn't render what happens when we die knowable. However, if it makes you more comfortable to make that claim, be my guest. By the way, you seem to be arguing with a great deal of energy. If your brain is doing the arguing, what about the evidence that energy never ceases to exist?
Who said anything like that?
Anyone who might have said that my sole objective was comfort, and anyone who might have said that that was any part of a reasonable summation of my position.
 
Fair enough. As I said before, however, philosophers deserve a place at the table. Logical arguments that disagree with empirical evidence shouldn't be dismissed for that reason alone.

For example, when I was a young man, I drove past some kid sitting on top of a guy pinning him down while three other kids watched. I drove on, thinking they were just some kids fighting. I had a weird feeling a minute later, and drove back to look. The street was empty, so I turned around again and drove off. A minute later I heard sirens and went back again. When I got there, the man who was pinned down was still where he had been and someone was giving him CPR. The "weird feeling" was actually hearing five shots, and in the empty street a man actually lay dying. I was there alone with him and I wasn't able to process that. At some subconscious level, I had to invent another experience to replace it.

If the mind is capable of substituting a fantasy and making it into a memory, then one could logically ask if all experiences were a fantasy. If experience is potentially unreal, then all data derived by observation and experience are potentially invalid. If such data are possibly invalid, a null hypothesis that relies on them isn't as strong as one that doesn't.

So for the present I'm sticking with the idea that what happens to us when we die is unknowable.

Here you go:

Do you ever think as a hearse goes by,

that you may be the next to die?

They wrap you up in a big white sheet

From your head down to your feet.

They put you in a big black box,

And cover you up with dirt and rocks.

All goes well for about a week,

Then your coffin begins to leak.

The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out,

The worms play pinochle on your snout.

They eat your eyes, they eat your nose,

They eat the jelly between your toes.

A big green worm with rolling eyes,

Crawls in your stomach and out your eyes.

Your stomach turns a slimy green,

And pus pours out like whipping cream.
 
The belief that happiness is a valid criteria for determining what is useful to believe about reality, for example, is a rather common belief among those who hold the cited position.
Fair enough. I suppose it is. I wasn't, however, intending to say that it was my position. Just that it was reasonable to take the position that a position that makes one happy has intrinsic value.
I do, however, care when bad arguments are put forward in support of a position.
Me too, although it would seem I overreacted to yours. :)
As it was, it quite appeared that you were equivocating between the quality of logic required for mathematical proofs and the quality of logic found in the arguments for why there's any reason to accept either that there's an afterlife or that there's any reason to accept that any unsupported and unfalsifiable arguments are particularly worth accepting as either the case or worthy of concern.
With no disrespect intended, this sentence is one of the most indigestible I've ever seen, to the point of being humorous. But I shall try. Yes, I suppose that mathematical proofs have the advantage of being supportable by empirical evidence, and the greatest indicator of truth is to have both logical proofs AND evidence. Furthermore, the assumptions upon which mathematical proofs are based have the apparent advantage of arising from common sense (A=A, for example). So it isn't reasonable to suggest that logical arguments against the extinction theory have the same quality as those of mathematical proofs. However, it is reasonable to suggest that they have some weight.
That said, the extinction hypothesis that you referred to is the most logical position to hold, based on the evidence, or lack thereof, and parsimony, and thus is the best option to act upon as if it is the case.
The most parsimonious position is the one with the least assumptions. That would appear to me to be the position that what happens when we die is unknowable.
Absolute certainty is not really a reasonable requirement for anything, after all...
It is a reasonable requirement for excluding as impossible all positions except ones own.
There's no shame in that, but there's also no reason to act as if the most logical position, when taking the whole picture into account, isn't the best one to hold.
And you are absolutely certain about that? :)
My apologies if I actually did inject the concept of belief into your argument, though I think I've presented reason for how I reached that conclusion.
Misunderstanding on my part of your intent. I overreacted.
 
One can logically ask that, regardless. Understanding that general concept is one of the reasons that I like solipsism.
Before iaca goes on another rant at me with that solipsism accusation, perhaps you'd be so kind as to explain why what I say seems to imply that I hold that position. I have trouble extracting his POV from all the "useless boring retard" stuff.
 
Right again, but you did not notice my sarcasm?
I don't think I did - maybe a smiley could have provided a clue...

Would you please give information of and links to you sources? Otherwise it is impossible to discuss their reliability.

It's been a while, and I haven't kept records of the links and sources, but some of them are given in the discussion threads I participated in on the Past Lives forum a couple of years ago. If you search for user name 'dlorde' you'll find the threads. There are some quite interesting discussions if you're interested in perspectives on past lives or reincarnation.
 
Where from my quote do you derive the idea that I'm saying that only my mind is sure to exist?

Are you kidding? The whole post.

Also, I believe I responded satisfactorily to the accusation the last time you made it, since you apparently had nothing to say to my response. So how is it that I'm going at it "again"?

Your argument was so wrong, I didn't feel the need to point it out. It's there for all to see.
 
Well, it's a little like that. But of course, we have all kinds of a posteriori evidence about what happens when we win the lottery. We have none about what happens after we die.

Yes we do. Our bodies disintegrate slowly, but surely. As there's no reason to assume there's anything else to us, we cease to exist as well. Furthermore, as all evidence points to the fact that the self is the product of brain activity, the self might go well before the whole body.

Try all you might, we won't let you ignore the available evidence.

Watch me. It's perfectly reasonable to withhold judgment. In fact, it's even more reasonable than not withholding judgment. QED.

I'd like to see you function in real life if you really believe that. Must be nice making rational decisions based on 100% proven facts all the time... Except it's not possible and you're making decisions all the time based on less reliable information that we have for what happens to us after we die. Of course, this makes all your claims to the contrary ridiculous and laughable.


Yeah, behaving like a child really advances your position.

Which doesn't render what happens when we die knowable. However, if it makes you more comfortable to make that claim, be my guest. By the way, you seem to be arguing with a great deal of energy. If your brain is doing the arguing, what about the evidence that energy never ceases to exist?

What about it? I assure you that unfortunately, my energy intake is way more than necessary...

Anyone who might have said that my sole objective was comfort, and anyone who might have said that that was any part of a reasonable summation of my position.

Oh, so you live in fear of the unknown. That explains why you cling to the idea of this eternal self, must be to comfort you in face of all that unknown.
 

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