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The Behavior Of US Police Officers - Part 3

jimbob said:
You need fewer police forces. Probably only federal and state. It wouldn't solve the problem but would remove the complete *********** that 18k police organisations causes
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While that has good points, I think smaller local forces have benefits too. They tend to know who's who in the community, and are intimately aware of the geography and all in their jurisdiction.

At least in theory, it should be harder to get away with things like this trafficking weapons with a small town force. The ATF raised an eyebrow over the small force requesting so much firepower. At the state level, the large numbers blend in with the other large numbers and it might have gotten by the ATF.

18000 different departments sounds like a lot, but it's a continent wide nation of a third of a billion. They don't really interact with each other and cause problems. Like Honolulu PD is not regularly stepping on the dicks of NYPD.

Eta: followed suit with the edit, I didn't even notice that it should have been censored till you edited yours
 
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Thermal said:
While that has good points, I think smaller local forces have benefits too. They tend to know who's who in the community, and are intimately aware of the geography and all in their jurisdiction.

At least in theory, it should be harder to get away with things like this trafficking weapons with a small town force. The ATF raised an eyebrow over the small force requesting so much firepower. At the state level, the large numbers blend in with the other large numbers and it might have gotten by the ATF.

18000 different departments sounds like a lot, but it's a continent wide nation of a third of a billion. They don't really interact with each other and cause problems. Like Honolulu PD is not regularly stepping on the dicks of NYPD.

Eta: followed suit with the edit, I didn't even notice that it should have been censored till you edited yours
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It's not the large police departments as such (although Baltimore, for example, shows that they can be problematic) . To be fair, it's only about 12k independent police forces; the other 6k are organisations with police powers, and the data is quite old now.

It's the 6k police forces with fewer than 10 full time officers of which about 2k have one officer.

I think it's more the Dukes of Hazard problem, which was pretty much the situation we were discussing.

It makes oversight very difficult, and is incredibly wasteful. The UK has massive problems (especially the Met) but at least only 30 odd police organisations is a manageable number.
 
30 Police forces but all under central oversight and with common command structure with standardised training and procedures to a large extent.
 
Yeah, Dukes of Hazzard is a good way to frame it. A small force without oversight is just asking for trouble.

Around here, our rural areas without a town force get patrolled by the state police. The thing is, none of the state boys have the foggiest idea where things are or how to get there, so you end up with lunatic long response times and every once in a while a frantic state trooper asking where the hell something or other is.
 
Thermal said:
Yeah, Dukes of Hazzard is a good way to frame it. A small force without oversight is just asking for trouble.

Around here, our rural areas without a town force get patrolled by the state police. The thing is, none of the state boys have the foggiest idea where things are or how to get there, so you end up with lunatic long response times and every once in a while a frantic state trooper asking where the hell something or other is.
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When I was younger I thought that the Dukes of Hazard was a (slightly racist) comic creation, not a toned down description of what does happen in such places. I also thought that RoboCop was supposed to be a biting satire on US policing trends. However, as the cops do risk their lives for the good of the citizens, I now realise it's an affectionate portrayal of dedicated police officers, although they are probably less well armed in the film.

As for the "lack of local knowledge" problem, having the more local police transfer to a larger organisation would make sense to me.

Australia manages with federal and state police. And definitely has to deal with similar problems, as well as large conurbations.
 
Andy_Ross said:
30 Police forces but all under central oversight and with common command structure with standardised training and procedures to a large extent.
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Yup. Also if you have 3 officers, who does the management? There're just more single points of failure in every matter.
 
jimbob said:
When I was younger I thought that the Dukes of Hazard was a (slightly racist) comic creation, not a toned down description of what does happen in such places. I also thought that RoboCop was supposed to be a biting satire on US policing trends. However, as the cops do risk their lives for the good of the citizens, I now realise it's an affectionate portrayal of dedicated police officers, although they are probably less well armed in the film.

As for the "lack of local knowledge" problem, having the more local police transfer to a larger organisation would make sense to me.

Australia manages with federal and state police. And definitely has to deal with similar problems, as well as large conurbations.
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I guess it's just our habit of thinking that big governing is bad governing, and will lead to a bloated bureaucracy that drowns under its own weight and doesn't know what it's doing.

Standardizing training has surely got to be a good thing. Our individual academies are standardized, but cops come in from other areas with who knows what kind of training. Otherwise, not really sure what the benefit is to a large centralized force? Smaller forces being themselves policed by an overseeing body, I can see.
 
Shadowdweller said:
I strongly suspect that there are cultural and administrative elements to the issue as well at play: Some parts of our police force are elected; and frequently compete to portray themselves as as "tough on crime" to the voting public. Whereas advancement and promotion can be earned in some agencies based on the number of arrests or convictions.
Or maybe just wide swathes of the US public like to envision criminals as irredeemably bad people undeserving of mercy or rights. Instead of human beings in bad circumstances; or who might need a bit of help fitting into society without breaking the rules.
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You might like the BBC 2024 Reith Lectures that cover exactly this issue, given by a Forensic Psychiatrist. So far she suggests that morderers aren't much different from anyone else. One line can't summarise a carefully presented argument, so don't take issue on this.

Titled Four Questions about Violence, Dr Adshead's lectures will address the most pertinent questions that she has faced in her work as a forensic psychiatrist:
  • Is violence normal?
  • What is the relationship between trauma and violence?
  • Is there such a thing as evil?
  • Can we change violent minds?
At a time of growing concerns surrounding the prevalence of violent behaviour both online and offline, these four lectures will consider the motivations, actions and rehabilitation of those who commit violent acts.

Drawing on her extensive professional experience as a leading forensic psychiatrist and psychotherapist, Dr Adshead will explore these questions from a clinical perspective, informed by thinking about the developmental and social roots of violence.

Dr Adshead’s work has led her to study how people develop social minds; how trauma affects the development of the mind and capacity to be pro-social and how best to help offenders rehabilitate.

Dr Gwen Adshead trained at St Bartholomew’s hospital, St George’s hospital and the Institute of Psychiatry and in 2024, she was named as one of five Honorary Fellows of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Dr Adshead currently works part-time in the NHS, as a consultant in a high secure hospital and in a women’s prison. With Eileen Horne, she wrote a book for general readership about her work as a therapist with violence perpetrators called The Devil You Know.
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www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Radio 4 - The Reith Lectures, Gwen Adshead - Four Questions about Violence, Is Violence Normal?

Forensic psychiatrist Dr Gwen Adshead asks if violence is normal.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
If you don't want to listen to the podcast you can download a transcript they are typed as the lectures are given so only the first two are available
 
Broward Co. to vacate convictions for people who bought crack made by the Sheriff's Office

"For three years, the Broward County Sheriff’s Office produced its own crack cocaine, so it could sell it to people that deputies would then arrest for buying crack cocaine."

cbs12.com

Broward Co. to vacate convictions for people who bought crack made by the Sheriff's Office

For three years, the Broward County Sheriff's Office produced its own crack cocaine, so it could sell it to people that deputies would then arrest.
cbs12.com cbs12.com
 
shemp said:
Kinda late for a lot of people whose lives have been damaged. Also, whatever happened to the officers involved? Did they get arrested, convicted and sentenced? Probably not.
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The obvious questions, and usually with the expected answers
 
shemp said:
Kinda late for a lot of people whose lives have been damaged. Also, whatever happened to the officers involved? Did they get arrested, convicted and sentenced? Probably not.
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I smell a very sizable lawsuit coming their direction. You're right though, nothing is going to get back the time they spent in jail because of this.
 
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US jury finds Vegas police fabricated evidence in 2001 killing, awards $34 million to exonerated woman


A federal jury in Nevada has awarded more than $34 million to a woman who was arrested at age 18, wrongly convicted twice, and served nearly 16 years in a Nevada state prison for a 2001 killing she did not commit.

The civil trial jury found Las Vegas police and two detectives, now retired, fabricated evidence during their investigation and intentionally inflicted emotional distress upon Lobato.

The detectives, Thomas Thowsen and James LaRochelle, and their attorney, Craig Anderson, declined to comment outside court. Anderson told US District Judge Richard Boulware he planned to file additional court documents following the verdict. Anderson said Friday an appeal was “likely.”

Full story

 
Shadowdweller said:
Yes, he could totally have acted against any sort of human surprise or survival instinct and any sort of police training the world over and just calmly let her stab him to death. Or stab the child she was holding to death, being so very clearly in her right mind with such clearly and obviously discernable motivations

Contrary to surprisingly widespread delusion it is not actually reasonably possible to consistently disarm an adult, knife-wielding assailant when ALREADY within stabbing range without sustaining life-threatening injury. Barring the use of specialized protective gear that police officers do not regularly walk around in.

And finally...funnily enough...neither batons, tasers, nor pepper spray are actually instant off switches.
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I was under the impression that even USAian police received training.
 
Shadowdweller said:
Using riot shields and heavy protective vests, while surrounding the assailant, isolating them from potential victims, and maintaining safe distance until the individual can be hemmed in by shields or (slowly) disabled at range with non-lethal means.

None of which was present nor is possible when the assailant starts at stabbing distance.
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No. Simply no. Patrol officers in most (civilised) jurisdictions can manage to deal with knife wielding attackers using graduated force, rather than immediately killing the attacker as the first and only option.
 
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