The atheist and morality

Pup said:
That's the part of atheism that always bothered me. To say there is definitely no god does come down to a belief, but in the end, most everything does.
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Belief is necessary and not to be avoided it is only what you base your belief on that needs to be scrutinized. Is there enough information or better information than you have and have you applied thought to the best of your ability? If so then you should believe your conclusions if any although you might be wrong.
 
I guess perhaps I have a narrow perspective on atheists since I haven't met many. I grew up in a religious community and still the majority of my friends are religious. I have not known many atheists that I liked so I have great resistance to calling myself an atheist since my concept of what is an atheist includes mostly a bunch of dysfunctional jerks. I have met over the internet on this board people who are atheists and seem to defy my previously held concept of what is an atheist so perhaps in time I will change my definition of atheist.
 
Dogdoctor said:
... I have met over the internet on this board people who are atheists and seem to defy my previously held concept of what is an atheist so perhaps in time I will change my definition of atheist.
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Good... Good Dog... :)


Sorry, couldn't resist...
I find it interresting that we can't fully agree on the definition of "atheist", although everyone is in the same vicinity. However, many of the threads here seem to wind-up with some type of symantics confusion/discussion. The point of having these threads is ultimately that we may all alter (however slightly) our personal definition of things.

Most people are located someplace on the theoretical line between, on one end, total belief in an existing God, and on the other end, total belief there is no God that exists or ever existed. What label we use to place us on that line tends to be misleading. I suspect that most people that call themselves something to place them on that line are actually at another location in reality.
 
CrossHair said:
I suspect that most people that call themselves something to place them on that line are actually at another location in reality.
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No, mostly everyone is exactly where they claim they are - a few oddballs aside, of course. You're probably just not using the right definitions - much unlike everybody else.
 
Dogdoctor said:
I guess perhaps I have a narrow perspective on atheists since I haven't met many. I grew up in a religious community and still the majority of my friends are religious. I have not known many atheists that I liked so I have great resistance to calling myself an atheist since my concept of what is an atheist includes mostly a bunch of dysfunctional jerks. I have met over the internet on this board people who are atheists and seem to defy my previously held concept of what is an atheist so perhaps in time I will change my definition of atheist.
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The willingness to change one’s mind, especially when concerning our concepts of other people, is a trait often taken for granted by those that possess it and contains no value when observed by those that don’t.

Despite your nearly 2000 posts, I have had little contact with you on this forum away from this thread. During the early course of the thread I had the impression that you thought poorly of atheists merely by connotation of the term, and I responded to many of your comments with a cynical tone, which I admit I did not attempt to hide. However, I find myself agreeing with many of your points. After reflecting upon your post I’ve quoted above, I offer my apologies for the hostilities within my remarks.

I find it interesting that morality, which comes naturally to most, is often the center of debate. The debate, however, is rarely focused on what morality should contain, since most people whether religious or not agree on many of the concepts we consider moral, but instead is concerned with where and how the concepts of morality originate.

Once one places the foundation of morality upon the concept of a God, it can no longer be considered the responsibility, nor within the ability, of an atheist to disprove the said person’s belief that atheists are immoral. For it was never the actions of the atheist that created the belief, but merely the definition of morality held by the person that precludes atheists from being perceived as moral. Therefore, the actions of an atheist cannot change the belief unless the person is willing to change their definition of morality.

I would guess that this debate has been going since the concept of morality was first established, and I don’t expect this argument over morality to be settled any time soon. Here is an excerpt from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1814 that some of you may find interesting. It was taken from the University of Virginia electronic database, from which you can read the full letter here.

Truth is certainly a branch of morality, and a very important one to society. But presented as its foundation, it is as if a tree taken up by the roots, had its stem reversed in the air, and one of its branches planted in the ground. Some have made the love of God the foundation of morality. This, too, is but a branch of our moral duties, which are generally divided into duties to God and duties to man. If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such being exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to-wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. have observed, indeed, generally, that while in protestant countries the defections from the Platonic Christianity of the priests is to Deism, in catholic countries they are to Atheism. Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
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I was unable to find the letter to which he was replying too.
 
Huntsman said:
It does seem your momentum is approaching zero, which must explain the difficulty in determining your position.
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It wasn't always like this. I used to have a position on mysticism and mathematics and an unfuriating lack of evidence, but after the DMT fueled rocket trip to the center of the sun, my momentum sadly, is always zero. Unable to believe any logical or illogical notion as not bunk, like the aeon, I chase uncatchable colored balls. Of course, it might be psychosis induced from staring at Maya's viewport 13+ hours a day.
 
Well I less than three logic, I think some atheists are afraid of discussions about morality because they don't understand it or perhaps they have found a safe place in some dogmatic view of morals and aren't willing to step out of that safe place and look around. I hope we continue to discuss it because in my opinion morality is a pivotal point in allowing people of all beliefs (or lack of beliefs) to coexist in harmony.
 
Dogdoctor said:
The majority of people living within a community already agree on morality to a great extent so it's not like there is that much to do unless you are those immoral atheists the religious fundies were talking about. I was thinking I could get atheists to become more interested in moral theory, but I am convinced it is pointless with some of the atheists on this board. Still I know some will hear me and think about it so I am happy and don't need Iammes help.
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I agree that everyone should have some understanding of moral theory, but I believe your looking at this the wrong way. Even if every Atheist in the world had a PhD in moral theory, we would still be viewed as immoral by the religious fundies.

It was never our actions that created their belief that we are immoral. Instead, it is their idea that morality stems from believing and following what they consider the word of God that creates their belief that Atheist (Well, anyone that is not of their religion really.) are immoral.

So, if your goal is allowing people of all beliefs (or lack of beliefs) to coexist in harmony, you should be more concerned with getting the religious fundies to understand moral theory.
 
I less than three logic said:
I agree that everyone should have some understanding of moral theory, but I believe your looking at this the wrong way. Even if every Atheist in the world had a PhD in moral theory, we would still be viewed as immoral by the religious fundies.

It was never our actions that created their belief that we are immoral. Instead, it is their idea that morality stems from believing and following what they consider the word of God that creates their belief that Atheist (Well, anyone that is not of their religion really.) are immoral.

So, if your goal is allowing people of all beliefs (or lack of beliefs) to coexist in harmony, you should be more concerned with getting the religious fundies to understand moral theory.
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To tell you the truth I don't care what religious fundies think about atheists. Not important. What is important is what atheists think of themselves. If atheists think and act morally everyone else who is not a religious fundy will see that.
 
Dogdoctor said:
To tell you the truth I don't care what religious fundies think about atheists. Not important. What is important is what atheists think of themselves. If atheists think and act morally everyone else who is not a religious fundy will see that.
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We do think and act morally.
 
Dogdoctor said:
Well I less than three logic, I think some atheists are afraid of discussions about morality because they don't understand it or perhaps they have found a safe place in some dogmatic view of morals and aren't willing to step out of that safe place and look around. I hope we continue to discuss it because in my opinion morality is a pivotal point in allowing people of all beliefs (or lack of beliefs) to coexist in harmony.
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This is rich, a veternarian calling other people out as thinking in a dogmatic way.
 
Dogdoctor said:
So what difference does it make what fundies think?
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What they think? It makes no difference at all; we are all entitled to our opinions. However, how they act because of what they think can make quite a big difference. Spreading irrational accusations to reinforce ideas of prejudice, bigotry, or intolerance can have very negative impacts.
 
Rational people can see that religious fundies are irrational and negative and intolerant. They can also see that in atheists if atheists are that way. Morality is the key and in fact because we aren't tied to archaic belief we can be more moral and more positive and more tolerant than fundies if we choose to .
 
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