The atheist and morality

[Scottie99]

Just creating this thread because of on ongoing frustration with religious people and their perceived moral superiority.

I have had many discussions with reasonable rational religious people that question my morality because I choose not to believe in a god. Why in the world most morality is intertwined with the belief in some fake man in the sky? Is morality not the basic principals one lives there lives on and should be based solely on that and independent of religious convictions.

Here are some of my moral beliefs (strictly my opinions)

I do not eat meat because I am against the factory farming and meat standards that exist in US. While I believe that humans evolved with meat being an important staple in the diet today’s practices do much more damage to the environment and bodies than good.

I do most of my travel by bicycle. Why? Middle East, gas prices, global warming, exercise. I really think this is a no brainier...

I am against state sponsored executions. We as the public do not have to power to decide when another’s life is to end.

I have been against the Iraq war from day one. While I do understand there are times that war is a harsh necessity (I know it conflicts with the point above but heck I am only human) this war is an outrage.

I have spent my whole professional career working in non-profits. Mainly community based organizations. While I am not sure this has anything to do with morality I strongly believe in having a job you believe in. For me that is a job that tries to give back to the community not take from it..



Just a sampling of who I am. So I ask you why in the world must I constantly be harassed as being moral inferior to my SUV driving, kill them all mentality, meat eating, rape the land and reap the profits, neighbors for the simple fact I don’t believe in god?

Just a vent... comment if you like...

Scottie

 

[JohnF_73]

I find it a little disturbing that so many devout people claim that if it wasn't for God or the bible or the torah or the law (or whatever your poison happens to be), then we'd all be driving to work high on coke or heroin, raping for pleasure and generally being completely self-destructive and hedonistic.

And I think... the only thing stopping you from going on a drug fueled killing spree is your belief that there's some dude in the sky?? Then for all our sakes, you go on thinking that, buddy.

 

[CrossHair]

Just creating this thread because of on ongoing frustration with religious people and their perceived moral superiority.

I have had many discussions with reasonable rational religious people that question my morality because I choose not to believe in a god. Why in the world most morality is intertwined with the belief in some fake man in the sky? Is morality not the basic principals one lives there lives on and should be based solely on that and independent of religious convictions.

It is a fool's effort argue logically with these people. Don't you know that God is 'all powerful' and knows 10billion times more that you! Following his law and rules MUST be better than following your own since you are subject to faults and sin.
In general PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO THINK CRITICALLY FOR THEMSELVES. You are a wild free-thinker and will do something uncontrolled if left to yourself. It is MUCH easier if everyone just follows along with the same song-sheet that someone else wrote. Why worry about using your brain to write your own song? You may go off-key.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Why does it bother you what they think?

Just creating this thread because of on ongoing frustration with religious people and their perceived moral superiority.

I have had many discussions with reasonable rational religious people that question my morality because I choose not to believe in a god. Why in the world most morality is intertwined with the belief in some fake man in the sky? Is morality not the basic principals one lives there lives on and should be based solely on that and independent of religious convictions.

Here are some of my moral beliefs (strictly my opinions)

I do not eat meat because I am against the factory farming and meat standards that exist in US. While I believe that humans evolved with meat being an important staple in the diet today’s practices do much more damage to the environment and bodies than good.

I do most of my travel by bicycle. Why? Middle East, gas prices, global warming, exercise. I really think this is a no brainier...

I am against state sponsored executions. We as the public do not have to power to decide when another’s life is to end.

I have been against the Iraq war from day one. While I do understand there are times that war is a harsh necessity (I know it conflicts with the point above but heck I am only human) this war is an outrage.

I have spent my whole professional career working in non-profits. Mainly community based organizations. While I am not sure this has anything to do with morality I strongly believe in having a job you believe in. For me that is a job that tries to give back to the community not take from it..



Just a sampling of who I am. So I ask you why in the world must I constantly be harassed as being moral inferior to my SUV driving, kill them all mentality, meat eating, rape the land and reap the profits, neighbors for the simple fact I don’t believe in god?

Just a vent... comment if you like...

Scottie

 

[Scottie99]

I think it would bother anyone to be judged based on a belief. They refuse to open their minds to the whole picture and want to focus on one area.

The bigger reason is these are also the people in charge of the country and thanks to them I have to deal with the effects of global warming, an energy crisis, healthcare crisis somewhat caused by our fast food lifestyle, my brother in law being forced to leave his little girls to be a doctor in Iraq. The list could go on and on but god gave us moral superiority and this land to use so screw the consequences...

 

[AsleepAtTheKeyboard]

The crux of the philosophical argument is the premise that morals need to be absolute - or at least good and bad must - to be truly effective. Thus God being the only absolute in their framework is the necessity and foundation of morality.
Much in the first post was about giving to society and such. Don't take from the society on this board by merely complaining, but offer insight and arguments.
I hear this debate a lot. I am interested in the discussion.

 

[ChristineR]

Atheistic morals can be absolute. For example, "the greatest good for the greatest number" leaves out a lot of the details, but in theory one can could calculate formulas involving death, pain, suffering, and probabilities and come up with a numeric basis for all action.

In practice, morals based on the "will of God" are anything but absolute. God has not chosen to tell us what is his will. Ask any two fundamentalists what God is telling them, and you'll get unrelated answers. The various sacred books are wildly contradictory. And worst of all, God often is claimed to give advice that is utterly abhorent to any decent human being, such as the Bible's views on slavery.

 

[CrossHair]

I think it would bother anyone to be judged based on a belief. They refuse to open their minds to the whole picture and want to focus on one area.

The bigger reason is these are also the people in charge of the country and thanks to them I have to deal with the effects of global warming, an energy crisis, healthcare crisis somewhat caused by our fast food lifestyle, my brother in law being forced to leave his little girls to be a doctor in Iraq. The list could go on and on but god gave us moral superiority and this land to use so screw the consequences...

Scottie99 is a young man that cares to try to influence the world for the better, as he sees it. Noble goal, and the best advice I believe is to live your life to your own high standards and try to lead others by them. To try and change, or influence, those that are currently leading the world as described above can not be done by logical means.
Here is a link to another current thread in this forum confirming that logic or critical thinking is not used by religious or political followers:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56008

 

[BryanLower]

I tend to think of religious morality like the way a parent teaches a child. A child can't understand why she should or shouldn't something, so the parent steps in and rewards or punishes the child to get the right behavior. There are some behaviors that you don't want a child to learn the hard way, because they're daingerous. Eventually, though, the child is suppose to grow up and understand *why* she should touch a hot burner or play outside in the winter without a coat.

Religious morality is like this. God says "Thou shalt not kill". If you do kill, you will be sent to hell. There are earthly consequences to murder, of course, but you don't want people to learn this the hard way. So you tell people not to do it because God says so. Eventually we should grow up and learn *why* we shouldn't commit murder. Religious morality leaves us in a perpetual state of childhood. It never makes us think about the why.

Another down side: if your morality is based on "because God says so", then you're vulnerable to preachers who claim speak for God and direct people to do bad things.

 

[Dogdoctor]

I think it would bother anyone to be judged based on a belief. They refuse to open their minds to the whole picture and want to focus on one area.

The bigger reason is these are also the people in charge of the country and thanks to them I have to deal with the effects of global warming, an energy crisis, healthcare crisis somewhat caused by our fast food lifestyle, my brother in law being forced to leave his little girls to be a doctor in Iraq. The list could go on and on but god gave us moral superiority and this land to use so screw the consequences...

Consider this. Whatever beliefs you have there are others who will think less of you based on their beliefs (so what?) What you are doing now is criticizing others for their beliefs. So it is OK for you to do it but it bothers you if others do it to you? Sounds like your brother in law is in the reserves and so he signed up to support his country if needed (he signed a contract = not forced) Dumb move on his part if he did not want to get involved in stuff like that. You are free to go elsewhere or stay in the USA and complain about it.

 

[Scottie99]

I posted my thoughts with awareness of complaining about others. Wanted to vent and felt safe venting here and sparking discussion with those that had more insight.

First I am in my mid thirties so I do feel I am leaving the exuberance of youth quickly and becoming more of the grumpy middle aged type.

Dogdoctor

While I criticize and may disagree with others beliefs I was venting on the frustration of the being cut off at the knees process.

Me: I have a problem with the Iraq war

Religious Zealot: The war is God's will

Me: I do not believe in god

Zealot: you are a immoral person whose opinion is invalid.

I think debate and difference of opinion drives this country my issue is my opinion being discounted and dismissed because I simply can have no moral compass without god.

 

[Beth]

Me: I have a problem with the Iraq war

Religious Zealot: The war is God's will

And if someone were to respond with:

"I don't believe that is so. I'm a Christian, but I think the War is evil and against God's will. Jesus would never advocate for such death and destruction under any circumstances."

I'm presuming your zealot is Christian. Do you think the Zealot will respond differently to someone who believes in God but doesn't agree about the War?

 

[Scottie99]

Of course the above conversation was a simplified example to highlight my point.

I would love to get into the debate on religious grounds with that person. Discuss everything from the crusades to the prospect of holy war but with atheist being the trigger word it seems to shut the doors tightly.

I do think this hypothetical Christian would be more willing to engage with a Jew, Muslim, Buddhists, etc. Atheist harkens immorality, pagan, devil worshipper and many other misconceptions that shut down the conversation quickly...

 

[azazal]

hmm, this popped into my mind - How many people have been killed in the name of god, vs. then number that have been killed in the name of atheism?

 

[Scottie99]

Exactly,

Yet the atheist is the immoral one. Its that absoluteness that I think lends to destroying a rational persons moral compass.

 

[Cynric]

And if someone were to respond with:

"I don't believe that is so. I'm a Christian, but I think the War is evil and against God's will. Jesus would never advocate for such death and destruction under any circumstances."

I'm presuming your zealot is Christian. Do you think the Zealot will respond differently to someone who believes in God but doesn't agree about the War?

Or "How do you know God's will? Are you a Prophet?"

Pretty well any come-back is futile, though. You'll never know their bliss...

 

[CrossHair]

I do think this hypothetical Christina would be more willing to engage with a Jew, Muslim, Buddhists, etc. Atheist harkens immorality, pagan, devil worshipper and many other misconceptions that shut down the conversation quickly...

If you really want to engage this person in discussion then one possible way would be to say you are really agnostic and maybe she would believe that you could still be 'saved'. This would engage her effort and you can lead the discussion where you like.

azazal, A logical approach will not work.

 

[Beth]

Of course the above conversation was a simplified example to highlight my point.

I would love to get into the debate on religious grounds with that person. Discuss everything from the crusades to the prospect of holy war but with atheist being the trigger word it seems to shut the doors tightly.

I do think this hypothetical Christian would be more willing to engage with a Jew, Muslim, Buddhists, etc. Atheist harkens immorality, pagan, devil worshipper and many other misconceptions that shut down the conversation quickly...

Okay, you have a point. So why tell him/her you're an athiest? Why not keep your religious beliefs to yourself?

Incidently, I've always found it odd that so many people associate atheism with things like paganism or devil worshipper, which require belief in a supernatural god/goddess that is worshipped?

 

[Scottie99]

If you really want to engage this person in discussion then one possible way would be to say you are really agnostic and maybe she would believe that you could still be 'saved'. This would engage her effort and you can lead the discussion where you like.

azazal, A logical approach will not work.

Sorry already corrected the mistype. Christina should be Christian.

The agnostic (or the simple method of allowing the debater to assume a white male with the last name of scott is probably a christian) approach does work.

My question is why do I have to lie or leave out facts of myself to discuss moral issues?

The crux of my argument in most cases would be what the f%$# does god have to do with morals. Did atheists hit the twin towers? Did atheists start the crusades? Did atheists rule in the decision of Roe Vs. Wade? Name me one freaking moral argument that atheists have had a voice in but yet we are the problem....

 

[CrossHair]

The crux of my argument in most cases would be what the f%$# does god have to do with morals. Did atheists hit the twin towers? Did atheists start the crusades? Did atheists rule in the decision of Roe Vs. Wade? Name me one freaking moral argument that atheists have had a voice in but yet we are the problem....

The major ones that I HAVE ACTUALLY HEARD are:
Stalin: Godless killer of millions.
Hilter: Not sure if he was or was not religious but generaly believed that he was godless. Killed millions.
It is assumed that these have killed more than in any religious wars.
I am not saying it makes sense, just reporting what I have heard.