Testable bible verses

[c4ts]

There's that thing about the followers of Christ being able to drink poison

You could test that against someone who is not Christian, but has slowly built up an immunity.

As for the snakebites, I don't know if there is a way to guarantee a poisonous snake will inject venom every single bite.

 

[pgwenthold]

That sort of argumentation could work both ways. God (I'm speaking very hypothetically here) also gave you trust and intuition, and the ability to have faith in people and things. Perhaps he also intended those as gifts.

Trust and intuition I have, but they are empirical.

Apparently, God (or the Holy Spirit, as the case may be) has not given me the gift of "believing in things without evidence."

I speak for myself. YMMV.

 

[ceo_esq]

Trust and intuition I have, but they are empirical.

The notion of "empirical intuition" is a new one to me, since intuition refers to "the faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes"; "immediate apprehension or cognition without reasoning or inferring"; etc.

What does empirical intuition mean, if anything at all?

Apparently, God (or the Holy Spirit, as the case may be) has not given me the gift of "believing in things without evidence."

Aw, don't sell yourself short. Everyone believes in some things that lack evidence, and indeed in some things which cannot possibly be established through evidence. I'm not inclined to attribute this "gift" to God, but it seems fairly certain that everyone has it and uses it.

 

[pgwenthold]

The notion of "empirical intuition" is a new one to me, since intuition refers to "the faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes"; "immediate apprehension or cognition without reasoning or inferring"; etc.

Then I don't use intuition. My "intuition" is to apply previous experience to determine a best procedure. Personal, that's what I think _most_ intuition really is, anyway. I don't believe that most people who claim to be acting by intuition are doing it without reasoning or inferring at all.

What does empirical intuition mean, if anything at all?
Aw, don't sell yourself short. Everyone believes in some things that lack evidence, and indeed in some things which cannot possibly be established through evidence.

How "established" does it need to be? More likely than not, at the least.

Try me. Tell me something I believe without any evidence or rational basis at all.

 

[ranson]

You could test that against someone who is not Christian, but has slowly built up an immunity.

As for the snakebites, I don't know if there is a way to guarantee a poisonous snake will inject venom every single bite.

Having grown up fairly close the first major (relative term, of course . . . it's mainly just a few closely grouped families) church of this kind, I can tell you a bit about their methods. I'm sure Ossai had a good view, but didn't see a lot of the prep work

First off, the poisons they drink are either generally very dilute, or not substances very toxic to people in small quantities. Strychnine is often cited as a drink of choice, and here's a link concerning toxicty . . . note the bottom of the page, in partcular. Link. Great dilution plus some good prep renders this almost harmless.

As for the snakes, well, snake handling is an old art. Basic herpetology gives you some decent instruction on the matter. I knew students that safely handled copperheads and the like after just a week of classes. Also, the snake storage boxes generally aren't kept all that warm. Lethargic reptiles = more safety. Also, though I haven't witnessed it, I have heard that the snakes being handled are occasionally milked prior to demonstations, thus reducing the amount of venom available.

Interviews with most older members of the church point to very infrequent bites, with medical attention applied to serious ones. Someone might be solid in their faith that they'll be okay, but the organization as a whole can't take that risk with the possibility of being shut down.

 

[swstephe]

i remember that right after the flood, god says nobody can live longer than 120 years [Genesis 6:3] -- just find someone over 120 years old, (for a long time, the appologists said the age limit tapered off for a while -- that's why there are people over 120 after the flood).

there was another prophecy that said that an uncircumcised man would never walk the streets of jerusalem, [Isaiah 52:1]. either you could do an "inspection", (ewwww!), or just ask someone who is uncircumcised to get his picture taken standing in jerusalm.

 

[Beerina]

I found this interesting as well as testable. I was wondering if there may be other testable hypothesis in the bible? What are the potential rationalizations that people give to reconcile these testable bits?

Thanks
Canadarocks

Sure, I started a thread awhile back on how God declared Man's lifespan shall be 120 years. Normal fundy vs. athiest argumentation revolves around whether this was before or after the last Patriarch died. Technically, the quote is before, but fundies argue it actually implies after. Or doesn't apply to them. Or applies to a segment of the population and not Mankind in general, or to pigs, or llamas or some such.


Sadly, a real, modern woman lived to be 121.


Current fundamentalist squirming involves:

1. Her records are a lie (by her or someone on behalf of her) or she is confused

2. She's a chick, and the oldest actual man only lived to 120 years, and 120 years includes 120 years and 364 days. And this also may involve lies or confusion

If you ask me, the guy who made up that part of the Bible picked an impossibly old age limit to explain why nobody lived as long as the Patriarchs anymore, assuming nobody would actually live that long.

Bzzzt! Sorry, game over. Thanks for playing.

 

[Beerina]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 2 characters.

 

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Actually Ransom - we all "know" from the "science of homoeopathy" that diluting something makes it stronger! These folks must really be on to something!

What we really need is for a fundie to spend three days & nights in the belly of a great fish or whale - any suggestions?

How about Kent Hovind?

YBW

 

[HeyLeroy]

Jesus said "He that believeth on me ... out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38)

So unless some religious christian panatic is spewing a geyser from his navel instead of staring into it, tell him he's obviously not a true believer, and quote that passage.

 

[Ceritus]

That was hilarious Leroy

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.

OK. Ok. I'll do the laundry already! (Fricking Leviticius....)

 

[Yahweh]

Here is something I remember Brown pointing out about a year ago, Numbers 5:11-28:

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

Translation: If a husband suspects his wife of infidelity, he takes her to the local priest where the priest makes the wife drink cursed bitter water. If the woman is innocent, nothing will happen to her; but if she is guilty of infidelity, her leg will rot away and she will become barren.

If you could get it passed the Ethics Committee, these few verses sound simple enough to test.

 

[Psi Baba]

Having grown up fairly close the first major (relative term, of course . . . it's mainly just a few closely grouped families) church of this kind, I can tell you a bit about their methods. I'm sure Ossai had a good view, but didn't see a lot of the prep work

First off, the poisons they drink are either generally very dilute, or not substances very toxic to people in small quantities. Strychnine is often cited as a drink of choice, and here's a link concerning toxicty . . . note the bottom of the page, in partcular. Link. Great dilution plus some good prep renders this almost harmless.

As for the snakes, well, snake handling is an old art. Basic herpetology gives you some decent instruction on the matter. I knew students that safely handled copperheads and the like after just a week of classes. Also, the snake storage boxes generally aren't kept all that warm. Lethargic reptiles = more safety. Also, though I haven't witnessed it, I have heard that the snakes being handled are occasionally milked prior to demonstations, thus reducing the amount of venom available.

That's why instead of using rattlesnakes and weak strychnine, I'd like to see them switch to black mambas and ricin. Now that would garner some attention, I would think! (either way)