Tesla's papers confiscated

Didn't you mean simultaneously?

Either way. The distinction I indicated is that between quantitative and qualitative progress. You can make both arguments or either.

A good analogy would be an early 20th century farmer. Horse power was the norm. So quantitative progress would be getting a progressively sturdier horse. Tesla's "horses" in this analogy would be simply so much more robust than any other equestrian specimen that we would be unable to fathom its worth. In this analogy, qualitative progress would be a steam tractor. It does the same thing as a horse, only much differently. If all you know is horses, you might never imagine such a thing as steam engines. This is what Tesla fanatics argue his fanciful theories would be like: mainstream scientists are incorrigibly "horse" people while Tesla was a "tractor" person.
 
I think the answer is simply that wartime makes governments do farfetched things. Consider all the crackpot ideas that were formulated and considered -- incendiary pigeons, etc. On the odd chance Tesla might have had notes on a viable breakthrough, better to have it than not, and better us than the enemy.

Are you possibly conflating incendiary bats with Skinners pigeon-pecking bomb guidance? Or is there another goofy incendiary plan I wasn't aware of?
 
Are you possibly conflating incendiary bats with Skinners pigeon-pecking bomb guidance? Or is there another goofy incendiary plan I wasn't aware of?

Bat bombs were an experimental World War II weapon developed by the United States. The bomb consisted of a bomb-shaped casing with numerous compartments, each containing a Mexican Free-tailed Bat with a small timed incendiary bomb attached. Dropped from a bomber at dawn, the casings would deploy a parachute in mid-flight and open to release the bats which would then roost in eaves and attics. The incendiaries would start fires in inaccessible places in the largely wood and paper construction of the Japanese cities that were the weapon's intended target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb
 
Either way. The distinction I indicated is that between quantitative and qualitative progress. You can make both arguments or either.

A good analogy would be an early 20th century farmer. Horse power was the norm. So quantitative progress would be getting a progressively sturdier horse. Tesla's "horses" in this analogy would be simply so much more robust than any other equestrian specimen that we would be unable to fathom its worth. In this analogy, qualitative progress would be a steam tractor. It does the same thing as a horse, only much differently. If all you know is horses, you might never imagine such a thing as steam engines. This is what Tesla fanatics argue his fanciful theories would be like: mainstream scientists are incorrigibly "horse" people while Tesla was a "tractor" person.

Of course, no matter how horsey you were the sight of a steam tractor in the field would be hard to argue with.
 
Of course, no matter how horsey you were the sight of a steam tractor in the field would be hard to argue with.

Sure, a fait accomplit is aways the best proof. But there are lots of people who can understand how steam engines work once it's shown to them, but comparatively few who would imagine it without having seen anything like it. The question, according to Tesla fans, is one of imagination -- thinking so far outside the box that you leave the box entirely behind and no one still stuck in it has a prayer of understanding what you do.

Although not everything outside the box is worthwhile. That's the part they forget.
 
Sure, a fait accomplit is aways the best proof. But there are lots of people who can understand how steam engines work once it's shown to them, but comparatively few who would imagine it without having seen anything like it. The question, according to Tesla fans, is one of imagination -- thinking so far outside the box that you leave the box entirely behind and no one still stuck in it has a prayer of understanding what you do.

Although not everything outside the box is worthwhile. That's the part they forget.




Yes of course! "Mainstream scientists" are so lacking in imagination! That's why Quantum Theory and Relativity are so ploddingly predictable. None of those by-the-book mechanics like Einstein, Bohr, Dirac, Pauli, Schroedinger, Feynman etc had the creativity and sheer intelligence necessary to develop anything really new! :rolleyes:
 
Oh god please let that be intentional, because it's absolutely, hugely, immensely, overwhelmingly, cosmically -- no, Marvel Cosmically -- CORRECT!

It was intentional. ;)

Although, because auto-correct I used the wrong word... It should be anti-Semitic.
 
Quite true. Yet his fans just say he was getting more and more brilliant. Consequently fewer people around him could match his intellect and insight. So they inappropriately dismissed his later theories as "crackpot" ideas when it fact they were far ahead of the times. There's a self-fulfilling justification among the fans, few of whom are equipped to evaluate his claims technically: they don't have to understand them; they only have to appreciate them.



And that's reasonably suspicious to his fans on its face. Not everyone who died during wartime had his papers seized by the government. What made Tesla so special?

I think the answer is simply that wartime makes governments do farfetched things. Consider all the crackpot ideas that were formulated and considered -- incendiary pigeons, etc. On the odd chance Tesla might have had notes on a viable breakthrough, better to have it than not, and better us than the enemy.



I agree. But then Tesla fans happily employ circular reasoning. "It was all crackpot stuff," is what they'd expect as a cover story. If you approach the question with the mindset of the worst Tesla fans (many of which are free-energy nuts), you see a clear motive for the Establishment to hide Tesla's work, much of it having to do with energy supply and distribution.

The crackpot characterization works in circles here too. Free-energy nuts and pseudo-scientists consider first the apparent novelty of an idea. Mainstream science, they believ, is always just more of the same; no innovation or singular breakthroughs. Therefore if Tesla's ideas seem radical, this helps that sort of person believe they might be the breakthroughs we need, the kind of advances Tesla made early on, and the kind of idea the Establishment would want to suppress.
Actually, given that it was wartime, seizing Tesla's papers was not an unreasonable act. There might have been something useful there, and if so, we certainly didn't want it to fall into enemy hands.

I find Tesla a fascinating person. He certainly had a lot of ability, but he also had a lot of deficiencies. He was a terrible businessman, had poor social skills, and was very likely mentally ill, at least in his later years. He seemed to go off the rails when he started pursuing wireless power transmission As I understand it, he did not claim "free energy", but did believe he could transmit power wirelessly, anywhere in the world, without loss. Even if it had worked as he thought it did, it would have been economically intractable, as it would have been next to impossible to make sure that the consumers of power paid the producers. Besides, it's pretty clear that it didn't work the way he thought it did. Eventually, he simply ran out of people willing to invest in the scheme.
 
Actually, given that it was wartime, seizing Tesla's papers was not an unreasonable act. There might have been something useful there, and if so, we certainly didn't want it to fall into enemy hands.

Indeed, my point exactly. Look at all the other stuff the U.S. did during the war that probably had a slim chance of paying off, but we did it anyway just because we didn't want to preclude anything that might remotely turn out succesful. The seizure occurred extrajudicially; the office that took custody of his papers did not have the statutory authority to do so in the case of U.S. citizens. Nevertheless the nominal purpose for the seizure was met: to identify any workable concepts in his work that could aid the war effort.

I find Tesla a fascinating person. He certainly had a lot of ability, but he also had a lot of deficiencies.

Indeed, a real-world assessment of Tesla seems to come to this conclusion time and again. But once someone accepts the notion of "Saint Tesla," there comes with that a speculative rebuttal to all the criticism.

As I understand it, he did not claim "free energy", ...

He himself did not, but that doesn't stop his disciples from asserting that he secretly knew about it and worked on it. Eccentric and charismatic people attract more conspiracy theories than ordinary people.

[Wireless transmission] would have been economically intractable, as it would have been next to impossible to make sure that the consumers of power paid the producers.

I gather most of Tesla's disciples don't really care about economic feasibility and would prefer an uncontrolled power distribution network. It's the same sort of argument that says network access should be free, food should be free, music and movies should be free, etc. When you examine those movements you often see a legitimate gripe in the form of some large corporate interest manipulating the variables in order to maximize profit at the expense of customer convenience and desire. That gives credibility to the opposite extreme in which little if any monetary interest intrudes.

So if you approach Tesla's power transmission theory from the assumption that current energy concerns are big corporations getting rich by nickel-and-diming consumers and charging money allegedly to maintain the wired power grid, you can see something attractive in the notion that the wired grid is merely an artificial constrain put in place to guarantee payment and establish a monopoly on a "public" electricity service. It's the electrical infrastructure equivalent of copy protection.

Tesla fans maintain that wireless transmission of electricity is possible and would be a lot cheaper than maintaining a wire transmission infrastructure, but is being suppressed because it would deprive Establishment energy producers of their monopoly and hegemony.

Besides, it's pretty clear that it didn't work the way he thought it did. Eventually, he simply ran out of people willing to invest in the scheme.

Tesla fans write that off as a smokescreen from mainstream science, the pawns of government and industry. Few have the qualifications to evaluate the claims directly. Choking Tesla's investment funds can be simply the means of suppression, e.g. by well-poisoning efforts aimed at the investors.

As long as one is committed to the Tesla religion and willing to suspend critical thought, a number of speculative excuses can apply to nearly every factual shortcoming.
 
Indeed, my point exactly. Look at all the other stuff the U.S. did during the war that probably had a slim chance of paying off, but we did it anyway just because we didn't want to preclude anything that might remotely turn out succesful. The seizure occurred extrajudicially; the office that took custody of his papers did not have the statutory authority to do so in the case of U.S. citizens. Nevertheless the nominal purpose for the seizure was met: to identify any workable concepts in his work that could aid the war effort.



Indeed, a real-world assessment of Tesla seems to come to this conclusion time and again. But once someone accepts the notion of "Saint Tesla," there comes with that a speculative rebuttal to all the criticism.



He himself did not, but that doesn't stop his disciples from asserting that he secretly knew about it and worked on it. Eccentric and charismatic people attract more conspiracy theories than ordinary people.



I gather most of Tesla's disciples don't really care about economic feasibility and would prefer an uncontrolled power distribution network. It's the same sort of argument that says network access should be free, food should be free, music and movies should be free, etc. When you examine those movements you often see a legitimate gripe in the form of some large corporate interest manipulating the variables in order to maximize profit at the expense of customer convenience and desire. That gives credibility to the opposite extreme in which little if any monetary interest intrudes.

So if you approach Tesla's power transmission theory from the assumption that current energy concerns are big corporations getting rich by nickel-and-diming consumers and charging money allegedly to maintain the wired power grid, you can see something attractive in the notion that the wired grid is merely an artificial constrain put in place to guarantee payment and establish a monopoly on a "public" electricity service. It's the electrical infrastructure equivalent of copy protection.

Tesla fans maintain that wireless transmission of electricity is possible and would be a lot cheaper than maintaining a wire transmission infrastructure, but is being suppressed because it would deprive Establishment energy producers of their monopoly and hegemony.



Tesla fans write that off as a smokescreen from mainstream science, the pawns of government and industry. Few have the qualifications to evaluate the claims directly. Choking Tesla's investment funds can be simply the means of suppression, e.g. by well-poisoning efforts aimed at the investors.

As long as one is committed to the Tesla religion and willing to suspend critical thought, a number of speculative excuses can apply to nearly every factual shortcoming.

Except we still don't have any "steam tractors".
 
If Tesla had discovered a secret of nature it would have been rediscovered by now.

That's quite a reasonable projection. But as you may know, Tesla fans argue that he was so far ahead of any of his contemporaries that it would take mainstream science more than just mere decades to duplicate his efforts. Alternatively, his fans argue that he was so orthogonally insightful that mainstream science would never be able to follow him.

Yeah but ultimately Tesla was just a man. Anything he could think up could be thought up by someone else. Even crazy ideas will eventually be replicated.

I've read a lot about the early years of the nuclear age and I've come to the conclusion that the USSR didn't really need its massive spying program to create nuclear weapons all on its own. And this is the problem with any effort to suppress technology: you can't unless you control the entire world. And no one does. If the USA had this great Tesla technology but choose not to build it someone else will at some point come up with it on their own.
 
one does have to ask. What precise technologies might exist for which the U.S. military would say, "this technology is too awesome, too life-changing, too revolutionary for us to use in winning wars"?

Indeed. But it actually gets even worse than that. You could almost make the argument that the government/military would avoid using some new technology because they know it would inevitably leak, get captured, or whatever and even if it gave them a temporary advantage things could ultimately end up worse for them. However, as Travis points out, anything that can be discovered by one person can be discovered by other people. So it's not a case of the military simply saying that some technology is too awesome for them to use in winning wars, but rather a case of them saying "this technology is so awesome we'd better just sit around and let someone else discover it and use it against us".

There are all kinds of secrets and conspiracies the military (any military really) get involved in, and plenty of scope for making up silly conspiracy theories about them. But they all involve the military and/or government trying to get some kind of advantage for themselves. The Tesla silliness must be the only conspiracy theory that claims the biggest, best funded and most powerful military force on the planet is engaged in a conspiracy to completely screw itself over for absolutely no reason.
 
Though there was the idea of a cat guided anti-ship bomb. :rolleyes::eek::boggled::eye-poppi:confused:

:confused: Huh?

:D

"steam tractors" means anything made with Tesla Technology.

Why would the US have this world beating technology and not use it to beat the world?
 

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