Terrorists win election !

[zenith-nadir]

But, one thing has not changed: Israel has not sat down to negotiate.

Who you gonna negotiate with Web?

Abbas? He can't even control the streets around his Mukata or the ones in Gaza City let alone Ramalla, Nablus or Jenin. So who's next in line? Marwan Barghouti? He's in jail serving time for murder and terrorism and also does not represent all Palestinians. Hmmmm... so who's next? Khaled Mashaal, the leader of Hamas? Well his band of buddies want Israel destroyed and to replace it with a big fat old theocracy, plus Hamas does not control the streets. Ahmed Qureia? Nope he's a quitter and has quit and unquit 2 or 3 times since Arafat died. Mohamed Dahlan?....Name the person Web who has the mandate to fulfill negotiation obligations for the Palestinians.

 

[webfusion]

"Who you gonna negotiate with Web? "

This was the attitude expressed about Anwar Sadat, in the aftermath of the Yom Kippur War, and Begin steadfastly refused to have anything to do with the man. Likewise, Arik Sharon steadfastly refuses to sit with Abbas, who is the elected leader of the PA.
FYI, Back-channel Negotiations over many minor things continue, ZN, and even there, the Israelis bring everything to a screeching halt "until the terror stops" --- well, the terror is not going to stop, especially as long as it provokes Israel into avoiding any moves towards a resolution of the overall conflict. It's a dream come true for the Palestinian terrorists to see Israel jump through their hoops.

----------------------------------
Israel and the Palestinian Authority renewed negotiations over the weekend regarding the disputed convoys between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, in the hopes of reaching an agreement to begin their operation this week.
Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz had announced Thursday that Israel would not allow the convoys to operate "at this time," but that the decision would be reconsidered during the week.
The decision to renew talks came after American officials expressed dismay that the convoys did not begin operation on Thursday, as Israel had promised.
----------------------------------

ZN,
Have you ever heard of a man named Muhammed Rashid? (aka Khaled Salaam).

 

[Manny]

So, I repeat ---
HAMAS is likely to ignore all external threats (especially by the US House of Representatives, which yesterday passed a resolution condemning HAMAS participation) and resist internal attempts to stop their joining in the January Parliamentary Elections.

What then?

Dunno what actually happens then, which increasingly looks like it's soon going to be now. But I can tell you what should happen. The people who have historically been supporters of the Palestinians should take them to the woodshed. They -- and by they I mean old Europe, the American left, Russia, etc., have to explain to them that by electing terrorists they are sending an entirely unambiguous signal that they do not desire statehood and an equally unambiguous signal that they don't deserve statehood. They have to start telling the Palestinians that they are risking diaspora. The end of the 50+ year struggle to create something called Palestine. They have to make it crystal clear that the entire world, including Palestine's supporters, are united in their resolve that Israel will exist on more or less its current borders and that people who believe that Israel should not exist are the enemy. They have to say that Palestine will not get further support from its former supporters -- no money, no diplomatic cover in the UN, no rhetorical support, nothing, until they straighten up and fly right.

That, ideally, is what then.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Dunno what actually happens then, which increasingly looks like it's soon going to be now. But I can tell you what should happen. The people who have historically been supporters of the Palestinians should take them to the woodshed. They -- and by they I mean old Europe, the American left, Russia, etc., have to explain to them that by electing terrorists they are sending an entirely unambiguous signal that they do not desire statehood and an equally unambiguous signal that they don't deserve statehood. They have to start telling the Palestinians that they are risking diaspora. The end of the 50+ year struggle to create something called Palestine. They have to make it crystal clear that the entire world, including Palestine's supporters, are united in their resolve that Israel will exist on more or less its current borders and that people who believe that Israel should not exist are the enemy. They have to say that Palestine will not get further support from its former supporters -- no money, no diplomatic cover in the UN, no rhetorical support, nothing, until they straighten up and fly right.

That, ideally, is what then.

I agree fully. This is tough diplomacy, and this is what needs to be done.

 

[zenith-nadir]

ZN,
Have you ever heard of a man named Muhammed Rashid? (aka Khaled Salaam).

All I know is he is an economist or something like that.

(courtesy of Gary Brookins, Virginia -- The Richmond Times-Dispatch)

 

[Kopji]

Well written Manny.

I admit I don't understand their thinking. Advocacy of Islamic extremism has not nearly destroyed the Palestinian economy, it has done it.
(Not forgetting what all this has done to Israel's economy).

A way out might be for Hamas to become more 'infested' with moderates. As they take on the realities of an economy and government maybe that will change them. Seems like an empty hope though, a few violent extremists go a long way.

 

[webfusion]

Rashid

He is the moneyman, in control of virtually all the major Palestinian enterprises, from fuel, to cigarettes, to cement, to the fledgling Palestine Airways, to the trucking industry, to electricity. He was Arafat's "financial Advisor" (hence ZN's recollection that he had some economic position). It is still Rashid that holds the keys to the kingdom, so to speak.

He is a secular technocrat, who often would meet in Tel Aviv with Dov Weisglass and discuss ways to bolster the PA, so that the airport could re-open, so that the Gaza-West bank passage could re-open, so that a deep-water port could be built, so that a free-trade agriculture zone can flourish, so that many more Israel-PA plans can take hold, and the Palestinians would feel independent, and see the Israeli veil of occupation lift away from Gaza and the West Bank.

Koji is absolutely correct, the extremists set the agenda, and Rashid took cover, not wishing to be seen as a 'collaborator' with Sharon. He is now quietly working behind the scenes at this point, completely aware of the danger posed by HAMAS to his vast financial holdings (estimated in the $$$ Billions $$$) in the Palestinian areas.

Manny has it right, as usual. The USA is going as far as it can, without actually committing Marines into the scene. George W. Bush might find it useful to call the two sides together at Camp David this coming spring and hammer out a wide-ranging series of agreements, even to the point of bringing about an Israeli recognition of "New Palestine" as a new Nation, albeit constricted to be a fully demilitarized State, like Lichtenstein.

 

[peptoabysmal]

Dunno what actually happens then, which increasingly looks like it's soon going to be now. But I can tell you what should happen. The people who have historically been supporters of the Palestinians should take them to the woodshed. They -- and by they I mean old Europe, the American left, Russia, etc., have to explain to them that by electing terrorists they are sending an entirely unambiguous signal that they do not desire statehood and an equally unambiguous signal that they don't deserve statehood. They have to start telling the Palestinians that they are risking diaspora. The end of the 50+ year struggle to create something called Palestine. They have to make it crystal clear that the entire world, including Palestine's supporters, are united in their resolve that Israel will exist on more or less its current borders and that people who believe that Israel should not exist are the enemy. They have to say that Palestine will not get further support from its former supporters -- no money, no diplomatic cover in the UN, no rhetorical support, nothing, until they straighten up and fly right.

That, ideally, is what then.

Something like that...

The United States House of Representatives said that Palestinian Authority (P.A) risks losing the U.S support if it allows Hamas to participate in the January 2006 Legislative elections.
The House also urged the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, to dismantle all armed resistance factions.

The resolution passed Friday on 397-17 vote; it also urged Abbas to declare that he intends to dismantle all resistance factions before the vote.

Also, the House added that the participation of Hamas in the upcoming Palestinian government will undermine the ability of the U.S to have a “constructive relation” or provide future assistance to the P.A.
http://www.imemc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15522&Itemid=1

 

[Zep]

It doesn't matter what Hamas does or says. They can say "we want to kill all the jews!"--and they say it--and can kill all jews they can reach--and they do just that--but Zep & co. will always always always ALWAYS find some excuse why they don't really mean what they say or that, if they mean it, it's all because they jews drove them to it.

The reason is simple: Zep & co. had, stupidly, supported "Palestinian Liberation" for years. To admit the essence of "Palestinian Liberation" is, was, and probably will be simply a euphemism for "the destruction of israel and a second holocaust" is to admit they were hoodwinked for years.

They will never admit it. After all, what's really more important: a few million butchered jews, thousands of miles away, or their precious self-esteem?

...exactly.

P.S.

You're saying "Terrorists Win Elections" as if the Fatah and PLO factions who ran against Hamas were different in any way.

You know nothing about me or what I stand for or what my views are on this topic, because I have never EVER posted them here. I rarely get enraged on the JREF forum, but this is one time I am. If that was your aim, you have certainly succeeded. This statement is a load of ABSOLUTE ◊◊◊◊◊, and you WILL retract it immediately. 24 hours - get moving.

 

[Zep]

Wow. You got me there Zep. Boy is my face red. I guess if Yasser Mansour, Hamas' spokesman says something that's good enough for you to negate the content of the Hamas Charter, several years of terrorism and Hamas's well-documented islamist ideology.

By the way Zep you have any kids? Perhaps they would be willing to go to the Hamas summer camp. Their counsellor will be the one with the bomb vest under his heavy flannel shirt - (see above).

That was hardly the intention at all. It was merely to quote other sections of the reportage that seemed to offer a somewhat different story to the one you are trying to build. Of course, if all Hamas are doing is building terrorist support then I am just as roundly condemning them as you are.

And you are skating on VERY thin ice with stupid statements like your last paragraph. Your "pal" Skeptic has already overstepped the line...don't join him.

 

[Dr Adequate]

A quick forum search for Zep using the words "Palestine", "Palestinian", "Israel" and "Israeli" show that in three years his posts relevant to the Palestine-Israel conflict have been:

For the record, I don't necessarily agree with all either side's views, and especially not the strident, mindless militarism on any side.

... and to suggest that Arafat should be removed:

There MUST be a way to "ease" Arafat out without resorting to any actions that would make him a martyr - that would be the last thing to bring any peace.

Of course, we didn't realise at the time what Zep had in mind, but his plan worked perfectly.

I can find no suggestion in his posts that he has ever been any sort of apologist for Palestinian terrorism.

He is clearly owed an apology. I wonder if he'll get one.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I give up. When you claim that Cleon is "dropping a big old fat Ad hominem fallacy", is this because you are too stupid to know what you are saying, or because you are lying?

Go away you add nothing to this discussion.

The fact that you are well-known to be both stupid and a liar makes it hard to tell.

Go away you add nothing to this discussion.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Hope has been abandoned. Please keep the discussion on the topic rather than each other.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[zenith-nadir]

Hope has been abandoned. Please keep the discussion on the topic rather than each other.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

Thank you.

 

[Dr Adequate]

How old are you? Really? You come into a thread, add nothing to it yet again, and demand "an apology" like a five year old.

These statements are factually inaccurate.

 

[a_unique_person]

Who you gonna negotiate with Web?

Abbas? He can't even control the streets around his Mukata or the ones in Gaza City let alone Ramalla, Nablus or Jenin. So who's next in line? Marwan Barghouti? He's in jail serving time for murder and terrorism and also does not represent all Palestinians. Hmmmm... so who's next? Khaled Mashaal, the leader of Hamas? Well his band of buddies want Israel destroyed and to replace it with a big fat old theocracy, plus Hamas does not control the streets. Ahmed Qureia? Nope he's a quitter and has quit and unquit 2 or 3 times since Arafat died. Mohamed Dahlan?....Name the person Web who has the mandate to fulfill negotiation obligations for the Palestinians.

So you won't be blaming Abbas for the terrorist attacks?

 

[zenith-nadir]

These statements are factually inaccurate.

Go away you add nothing to this discussion. The fact that your previous attempts to derail this thread were edited by a moderator is your clue to cease and desist.

So you won't be blaming Abbas for the terrorist attacks?

The continued failure of the Palestinian Authority to act against terror organizations is known around the world. I dunno how many times Abbas "pledged" to act since he was elected last year, I guess I could Google "Abbas pledges" but that is a waste of my time.

17:17 18/12/2005

Palestinians in the Gaza Strip fired a Qassam rocket on Sunday afternoon that hit just south of Ashkelon. The militant group Islamic Jihad distributed a video of what it said was the launch of the rockets.

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said on Sunday that the defense establishment has received specific warnings of six planned Palestinian terror attacks and 43 other general warnings.

Palestinian authorities evacuated a hospital in the West Bank city of Nablus on Sunday after discovering a car packed with explosives parked outside.

IDF soldiers killed a Palestinian gunman attempting to bomb a military patrol on the Gaza-Israel border late on Saturday, a Palestinian militant group said.

Busy...busy...busy. The Palestinian Authority is 100% responsible for the terrorists and terror groups operating freely to launch rockets at Israeli civilians from Palestinian Authority-controlled areas such as Gaza.

 

[webfusion]

busy busy busy, murdering

ZN, in your review of the weekend's terror events against Israel, you omitted a 'minor' incident that barely received any mention in the Press, because it is just another typical report, no longer due of special headlines or even a Breaking News segment, since it is so routine at this point ---

• Palestinian gunmen opened fire from the window of their vehicle, killing Yossi Shok, 35, from the nearby settlement of Beit Hagai. Islamic Jihad and the Fatah-linked Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the attack.
  Mr. Shok died of a head injury shortly after arriving at Hadassah University Hospital, Ein Karem. He is survived by his wife of 10 years, Hagit, and five children, including a 1-month-old infant.

Yossi Shok.

It might be a refreshing change to see an arrest and a trial of his killers, by the PA Police.

However, it will not likely happen, I am sorry to say.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Go away you add nothing to this discussion.

This statement is inaccurate.

The fact that your previous attempts to derail this thread were edited by a moderator is your clue to cease and desist.

Your claim that I have made "previous attempts to derail this thread" is inaccurate.

If you wish to continue to make inaccurate statements about me, I shall continue to correct them.

 

[webfusion]

Dr Adequate, you are adding nothing to the discussion. Lisa Simpson, acting as moderator, asked for everyone to keep to the topic. That is an accurate statement, posted and visible to anyone. It seemed to apply directly to you. Now, why are you posting here? Do you have one word related to the topic to say?

Masked Palestinian terrorists cheering in Gaza at the news of Arik Sharon's hospitalization.

These folks are going to face plenty more of Arik Sharon's "medicine" in the near future, as he is just resting a bit and is not incapacitated, and will be ordering the IAF to resume putting the Islamic terrorist leaders six-feet under the ground soon enough.

HAMAS will be destroyed.