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tax code written for the rich

Tmy said:
How many govt services are EQUAL to ALL people???

Lets take the FAA. I fly a couple of times a year vs. a business man who flies 50x vs. and old lady who never flies. You can argue how we all benefit from the safe air travel system.

How would your service fee system work??
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(emphasis mine)

police (and law enforcement in general)
fire brigade
ambulance
armed forces
sanitation
roads (at least within towns)

...to name just a few...
 
I always thought it was strange that the highest braket is 35% for people making over $320K. While $320 is a good amount its totally different than the guy making $3 million or $30 million. Yet they are all lumped as the same.
 
Chaos said:
(emphasis mine)

police (and law enforcement in general)
fire brigade
ambulance
armed forces
sanitation
roads (at least within towns)

...to name just a few...
Click to expand...


Practically speaking, how do you charge for these fees??

Put toll roads all around?? Pay every time the fire dept comes by. (isnt that unsafe to discourage calling the FD???)

We dont all use these services equally. I havent called the police in years. THe mall down the road calls them all the time to pick up shoplifters ect...
 
It depends on how you judge fairness. People like Cain judge tax fairness in the total dollars you receive from the cut.

For instance,

Person A makes 100 dollars a day. His tax rate is 50 percent. He pays 50 dollars in taxes on a given day.

Person B makes 80 dollars a day. His tax rate is 25 percent. He pays 20 dollars in taxes on a given day.

Now, if you do an across the board 25 percent tax reduction. Person A now has a 25 percent tax rate and pays 25 dollars a day in taxes. He pays 25 dollars less than he used to.

Person B has a zero tax rate and pays 20 dollars less than he used to.

Now, someone like Cain who is leftist at heart will put on his blinders and say "person B got less of a tax break because he got less dollars" since that fits their outlook and agenda to do so. To do this you must ignore:
person B now pays zero federal taxes
person B had a lower rate to begin with
person B gets back the same percentage of their money back

When you up the scale of this example to someone who makes a millions a year and someone who makes 50,000, the numbers have a deluding personal effect on people who view them. That is why I prefer to work with 100/80 since it takes the preconceived notions of rich/poor out of it.

Now, what people like to do is appeal to your natural envy of people with more resources than yourself. If someone who disagreed with the taxcut said "the rich got a break from 35 to 32 percent on their taxes while people making up to 50k a year have an effective rate of zero" it wouldn't have much effect.

However, if you say "a bazillionair got millions back while Joe Sixpack got 1000 dollars" it sounds much worse. They key here to disinforming is to make sure people don't think critically about the data (and hope they dont understand basic math or are willing to ignore facts because you target a group they envy and despise).

Disinformation 101, Cain style.
 
Disinformation indeed. Corplinx, please tell me where, either in this thread or in the past, I expressed the view* you are attributing to me.

When Republicans talk about cutting taxes it's almost always the income tax. The problem is that something like three-fourths of Americans pay more in payroll taxes. When we talk about Reagan's term and taxes, for an added example, it's almost always how he (with the consent of Democrats) brought down the highest marginal tax rates. But nobody mentions the really big tax hike on Americans for social security.

*"People like Cain judge tax fairness in the total dollars you receive from the cut."
 
Cain said:
Disinformation indeed. Corplinx, please tell me where, either in this thread or in the past, I expressed the view* you are attributing to me.

*"People like Cain judge tax fairness in the total dollars you receive from the cut."
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I was just taking the opportunity to paint you as a commie :)
 
Cain said:
When Republicans talk about cutting taxes it's almost always the income tax. The problem is that something like three-fourths of Americans pay more in payroll taxes.
Click to expand...

Pardon my ignorance (or maybe it's the after-lunch "food coma" setting in), but what are you calling "payroll taxes?" Income tax, Social Security, and Medicare are the 3 (federal) withholdings I see on my pay stub. And Income Tax is the highest of the three (though maybe that is just the tier I fall into, although it is by a sizable margin).
 
"I was just taking the opportunity to paint you as a commie :)"

I wonder if I'm now obligated to go the route (pioneered by JJ) of starting a new thread to publicly and unmistakbly express the most santimonous outrage while acting like the world's whiniest little bitch. But I don't want to do that.

Instead I, Cain, challenge you, Corplinx, to a throwdown. Guffman's bluff after sixth period. If you're not there I'm gonna tell everybody in woodshop (and Daisy Davis) that you're a raging pussyboy.

No doubt this fanciful and much-circulated analogy has been copy/pasted here earlier. It could've saved you the trouble:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/foundationmessage11-02.html

Dave: See: http://www.everything2.com/?node=payroll taxes (this link is four years old but the information generally looks correct. The cap has since been raised to around $85,000)
 
(Shrug)

The rich, for obvious reasons, pay the most taxes both absolutely (i.e., dollar amount) and (usually) relatively (percentage of their income), as well. This naturally means that tax cuts are going to effect them more: when a relatively small group pays (say) 50% of all income tax, cutting income tax means that 50% of the cuts, more or less, will go to that relatively small group, too.

This way, those who want to cut taxes even more can keep ranting, "A tiny group of rich guys pay most of the taxes! That's unfair! Let's cut them!", while those who want to keep taxes as they are rant, "A tiny group of rich guys gets most of the tax cuts! That's unfair! Let's tax them!". But in reality it seems to me that these are really two sides of the same coin.
 
We should just turn over tax collection to the Mafia. Tell them how much we want, and let them go get it. How? You don't want to know.


We already have a mafia like system in place for collecting taxes. You pay the government a percentage of your income for protection. The protection of course is to protect you from the government/mafia itself.


There is no such thing as a fair tax.
 
Millions of families expecting tax cuts are losing some or all of them to a stealth tax that was originally enacted only to apply to the tax-avoiding rich, but that now stings single mothers making as little as $28,000. But the cumulative results are remarkable: the 400 richest Americans pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than someone making $100,000. The 400 richest pay less and less of their income in taxes while the middle class pays more and more. And while the incomes of the very rich skyrocketed over three decades, the average income for the bottom 90 percent fell.
____________________________________________________

Now I haven't read the book yet, but it seems to directly dispute
the notion that Corplinx, Skeptic and Rush limbough et al put forth.

The contention is as stated above that once you cross the $100K mark the acutal dollars you pay in taxes remains the same.

So if I make a $100K and pay 10K in taxes while a guy who makes $1Mill pay s the SAME $10K HIS taxes are 10 times less than mine as a percentage of income! And for the Corporate theives this percentage is already at about the same level as those who make $30K or less. I mean if you make $300mill and you pay $10 in taxes you are MOST certainly paying less taxes are you not? Couple this with the fact that while the fortune 400 have quadrupled their income and people who make less than $50K have affectively taken a pay cut - the average raise is about 1.5% per year while inflation and the cost of living are in the 4+% per year the same money is not only taxed the same rate, but buys LESS!

OR am I missing the whole point!
 
Phrost said:
And I'd like to add that the only fair tax is a flat tax.
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As long as the flat rate is 0%. There is NO SUCH THING as a fair tax.
 
shanek said:
As long as the flat rate is 0%. There is NO SUCH THING as a fair tax.
Click to expand...

Knowing you, you've got a well-reasoned argument behind that statement.

I guess I'm a really crappy Libertarian; I believe in some taxation, and support the invasion of Iraq.

Anyway, I try to balance my idealism with realism. If we radically altered our tax structure, the government would collapse. Hell, they can't even properly operate a text paging/SMS terror service.

And Cain/"Flaming Anarchy", come on now. You've already been invited to THE Throwdown in Vegas, same weekend as TAM. You're all invited, with a ticket stub/pass/what-have-you from that event to come watch at the very least. Although I wouldn't advise participation unless you've got some formal martial arts or combat sports (wrestling, boxing, etc) training.

Here are a few links to videos of what we do at Throwdowns (discuss, exchange, and test the practicality of techniques on each other, among other things):

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?s=&name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=31

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?s=&name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=88

And the obligatory, obnoxious, animated gif:

tnkvsws.gif


As I said, we'll have a nominal fee for entry which will be waived if you have a pass for TAM.
 
Phrost said:
And I'd like to add that the only fair tax is a flat tax.
Click to expand...

Hope you make a whole lot of money then Phrost.

I've looked at the proposals for a flat tax, most of them have a tax in the neighborhood of 20%, with few, if ANY, deductions.

Last year I paid less than 15% and I make a decent middle class income.

But put in a flat tax and my taxes and the taxes on the middle class go up!

Yeah, I can imagine some fat cat like Steve Forbes, who has never seen a days work in his life would love to cut his taxes from 35% down to 20%. Granted he and most of the people in his bracket are not really paying that, but I'm sure avoiding taxes through high dollar CPA's does take a toll on daddy's millions!

Of course then the government will be taking in less money, since they cut 10% on the super wealthy and only hit the middle class for 5%. And I imagine its possible that service demand could remain the same, but will probably grow. I wonder who they will raise the rate on?

Forget flat tax, forget national sales tax. It ain't gonna happen. People are not that stupid.

Our tax code is complicated because deductions serve a purpose (IIRCC, most of the code is about deductions) and because everytime you put in a new deduction, some smart CPA figures out a way to manipulate it in ways that were unintended.
 
mjv said:
Hope you make a whole lot of money then Phrost.

I've looked at the proposals for a flat tax, most of them have a tax in the neighborhood of 20%, with few, if ANY, deductions.

Last year I paid less than 15% and I make a decent middle class income.

But put in a flat tax and my taxes and the taxes on the middle class go up!

Yeah, I can imagine some fat cat like Steve Forbes, who has never seen a days work in his life would love to cut his taxes from 35% down to 20%. Granted he and most of the people in his bracket are not really paying that, but I'm sure avoiding taxes through high dollar CPA's does take a toll on daddy's millions!

Of course then the government will be taking in less money, since they cut 10% on the super wealthy and only hit the middle class for 5%. And I imagine its possible that service demand could remain the same, but will probably grow. I wonder who they will raise the rate on?

Forget flat tax, forget national sales tax. It ain't gonna happen. People are not that stupid.

Our tax code is complicated because deductions serve a purpose (IIRCC, most of the code is about deductions) and because everytime you put in a new deduction, some smart CPA figures out a way to manipulate it in ways that were unintended.
Click to expand...

Good points.

Heh, of course, I'm in the 28% bracket so I would benefit from such a flat tax.

Have to rethink my position on it a bit, but it's still ridiculous that those who use government services the most (the underprivilaged) pay nothing in return while the burden is on those who use at least the social services, the least.
 
Cain said:

Instead I, Cain, challenge you, Corplinx, to a throwdown. Guffman's bluff after sixth period. If you're not there I'm gonna tell everybody in woodshop (and Daisy Davis) that you're a raging pussyboy.
Click to expand...

Sure thing junebug, bring your buddies from band class to drag you to the school nurse. There's a reason they call me Corpse. Its because i have the alias Corplinx, and corpse is one syllable and sounds cool.
 
Tmy said:
How many govt services are EQUAL to ALL people???
Click to expand...
Lots of them are fairly equal: defense, highway system, IRS, imigration, national parks, etc.

Lets take the FAA. I fly a couple of times a year vs. a business man who flies 50x vs. and old lady who never flies. You can argue how we all benefit from the safe air travel system.
Click to expand...
But I think the old lady would rather that a plane not crash into her house.

I agree that if we bicker over exactly how much of each service we get, the idea falls apart. But right now we can't bicker at all, so how is my idea worse is that regard? At least it makes clear the split between services and income redistribution.

~~ Paul
 
mjv said:
Hope you make a whole lot of money then Phrost.

I've looked at the proposals for a flat tax, most of them have a tax in the neighborhood of 20%, with few, if ANY, deductions.

Last year I paid less than 15% and I make a decent middle class income.

But put in a flat tax and my taxes and the taxes on the middle class go up!

Yeah, I can imagine some fat cat like Steve Forbes, who has never seen a days work in his life would love to cut his taxes from 35% down to 20%. Granted he and most of the people in his bracket are not really paying that, but I'm sure avoiding taxes through high dollar CPA's does take a toll on daddy's millions!

Of course then the government will be taking in less money, since they cut 10% on the super wealthy and only hit the middle class for 5%. And I imagine its possible that service demand could remain the same, but will probably grow. I wonder who they will raise the rate on?

Forget flat tax, forget national sales tax. It ain't gonna happen. People are not that stupid.

Our tax code is complicated because deductions serve a purpose (IIRCC, most of the code is about deductions) and because everytime you put in a new deduction, some smart CPA figures out a way to manipulate it in ways that were unintended.
Click to expand...
Pssst, you've taken the bait hook, line, and sinker. You would almost undoubtedly pay less in a flat tax, because the first, say, $20,000 would be exempted. This would mean a huge difference for you, but wouldn't amount to jack squat to someone making $500,000. Especially since all those loopholes could be eliminated, the rich would pay far more. Why do you think Mrs. Kerry won't release her tax statements? It's because she pays pitifully little for all the wealth she has and doesn't want to embarass her hubby. CPA's use the lopopholes for exactly the reason they were intended. Loopholes have to be purposely put in the tax code, that's why it's 50,000+ pages long and you need to hire professionals to figure it out.

Don't be a sucker mjv! Politicians lie, and their rich donors buy those $1000/plate dinners to keep those loopholes in there. Bet you haven't been to any of those dinners! Way back when, the top tax rate was 95%. Of course, no one actually paid that much because there were loopholes put in there you could drive a train through. Sideways. But the pols could tell the "little people" how they're soaking those nasty rich folks, wink wink, nod nod. And far too many people fall for the BS.

All that said, I'm closing on a house next month and will definitely take advantage of the mortgage interest deduction!
 
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