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Taps = Fraud?!

I think the fact someone is claiming they are a Non-profit when they are not adds a little weight on the legal side. Again, though, I'm biased since I dealt with this in Corporations. Complaints are lodged every day by those who have donated to fraudulent Non-profits and watched their money walk away.
 
The Vampire said:
Complaints are lodged every day by those who have donated to fraudulent Non-profits and watched their money walk away.
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That's part of my point. We're dealing here with, what, $700 per month (or is it two months, I'm confused)? Enron, this isn't.

BTW:

The JREF Forum is owned by the James Randi Educational Foundation, a not-for-profit organization...

The James Randi Educational Foundation is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit educational organization...
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My emphasis.

Point being, confusing the two is a minor mistake that anyone can honestly make. If you're (or whoever) going to accuse someone of fraud, you're going to have to do more than show they made an honest mistake. And falsely accusing someone of fraud can also put you on the wrong end of a libel suit. I would advise caution from this point on.
 
I understand that. I've not accused anyone of fraud or filed any complaints. However, it is a person's right to ask an entity who claims Non-profit status where they have filed Articles of Incorporation as a Non-Profit, when none are present in Public Records. After several years of stating they are a Non-Profit and never answering public queries, one does wonder.

JREF's records are available to the public at the Florida Secretary of State's website, so there is little chance of any confusion.

FLA Records

In the interim, TAPS has removed all reference to Not-For-Profit on their website.

The point I'm trying to make is even if someone is a Not-For-Profit, you must file the paperwork with the Secretary of State's office in the state the Not-For-Profit is organized. You can't just wake up one day and call yourself that and start collecting money.
 
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The Vampire said:
Still, JREF has filed the appropriate paper work with the FL Secretary of State.
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The point I was making is that the two terms are commonly used interchangably, rightly or wrongly. Even JREF makes the mistake, and it is irrelevant to that point that JREF actually is a 50c3. You can't accuse someone of fraud simply because they make a common mistake. That TAPS has apparently taken steps to correct the error (including, as I understand it, filing to actually become a 50c3), mitigates any actual offence, in a very real legal sense.

We are dealing with thousands of dollars as stated on Jason Hawes blog.

Money Collected By TAPS
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They claim all that money was donated to various charities. Is there any evidence that it wasn't?
 
If it was donated, then no one has anything to worry about. One can counter, is there any evidence it was donated?

The fact remains, TAPS marketed themselves for years as a Non-Profit without registering as a Non-Profit. Even their national network of TAPS Family offices had the foresight to organize as Non-profits in the states where they operate. That may not be out and out fraud on the part of TAPS; however, it is misrepresentation.

Things may have changed since I parted company with the state, but isn't 50c3 the IRS Non-Profit form? Non-profits and Not for profits must organize first at the state level in the state where they do business.
 
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The Vampire said:
If it was donated, then no one has anything to worry about. One can counter, is there any evidence it was donated?
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Wrong!!! You know better than that, and I know you do. The onus is on the claimant/accuser to provide the evidence; the accused is innocent until proven otherwise. That is standard scientific and legal procedure. Frankly, Vamp, I'm rather disappointed.

The fact remains, TAPS marketed themselves for years as a Non-Profit without registering as a Non-Profit.
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They made a mistake, they were called on it, they are correcting it. As to the cause of the mistake, I am in no position to assign motive but I will listen to anyone who substantiates that they are in such a position. In cases like this, though, my default position is the same as is official policy at work: Assume good intent unless contradictory evidence already exists in the record. At the moment, all you have produced are accusations and assumed motives.

Things may have changed since I parted company with the state, but isn't 50c3 the IRS Non-Profit form? Non-profits and Not for profits must organize first at the state level in the state where they do business.
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I don't know, that's not my area; assuming that TAPS simply screwed up, though, I don't see how SOP applies, here. However, it does bring up a question: Has anyone ever been known to take a hit because they claimed a donation to TAPS as a deduction on their taxes, state or federal?
 
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Beady said:
Wrong!!! You know better than that, and I know you do. The onus is on the claimant/accuser to provide the evidence; the accused is innocent until proven otherwise. That is standard scientific and legal procedure. Frankly, Vamp, I'm rather disappointed./]

Point taken.


They made a mistake, they were called on it, they are correcting it. As to the cause of the mistake, I am in no position to assign motive but I will listen to anyone who substantiates that they are in such a
position. In cases like this, though, my default position is the same as is official policy at work: Assume good intent unless contradictory evidence already exists in the record. At the moment, all you have produced are accusations and assumed motives.
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There is no statute, at least in this state, allowing bending of corporate laws simply because of mistakes and oversights. When corporations forgot to pay corporate taxes and file annual reports, I was required to revenue suspend the entity regardless of reason. I'm sure there are plenty of groups and charitable organizations who never filed for NP status or forgot to get a Charitable Solicitations license. However, when the state caught up with them, they still had to pay the fine regardless of good intentions.

TAPS has admitted they never filed as a Non-profit status yet represented themselves as such. After so many questions were asked, though, if it was me in their place, I would have checked with my tax attorney. But that's just me.


I don't know, that's not my area; assuming that TAPS simply screwed up, though, I don't see how SOP applies, here. However, it does bring up a question: Has anyone ever been known to take a hit because they claimed a donation to TAPS as a deduction on their taxes, state or federal?
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That I do not know. Again, I did not do the investigation. I simply linked Remie's story to my blog. Assuming TAPS did simply screw up, they still screwed up. And it is up to the business or NP to make sure they are operating legally, not customers, contributors or the general public. You still cannot wake up one morning and declare yourself as a Non-profit and operate as such without doing the required paperwork. The law is very clear: an entity cannot operate as a non-profit without organizing as a non-profit and filing the appropriate paperwork.

Now I'm disappointed.
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The Vampire said:
Now I'm disappointed.
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Sorry. Bottom line, though, is that there's no sustainable justification, legal or moral, for crying "Fraud." Whether any other type of crime might have been committed is another matter, but 1) you haven't convinced me, and 2) whatever might have been done doesn't appear to have been on a scale that would trigger legal action.

All in all, I'd say the final verdict, based on the weight of the evidence, is "Not Guilty."

And, mind you, I'm on your side. If I'm not persuaded, why would a jury be?
 
The only time I've seen the word fraud is in this thread and with a question mark. If I've missed a few chapters let me know. I'll admit I've not been as focused as usual.

Still, one point that is being overlooked again and again is: TAPS claimed to be a Non-Profit. TAPS admitted they were not a Non-Profit but were accepting donations as a Non-Profit. If this came across my desk, it would go directly to the Charitable Solicitations' legal department. They would determine if a license was ever filed and if the amount of donations were enough for an audit. Then the nasty wheels of government would start to turn, as they slowly but surely do.

It would be the same if a lobbyist started back-scratching at the Legislature without registering as a lobbyist with the State. He may have forgot to register and had good intentions, but he's still breaking the law.

I understand you are on my side and we disagree on this point, but I can't excuse TAPS for the NP fiasco by giving them the benefit of the doubt. Too much time has passed for me to be comfortable with that. If I had given money and read Remie's article, I would ask them where my money went.
 
The Vampire said:
If I had given money and read Remie's article, I would ask them where my money went.
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Which is fine, but then we're back to an earlier point I made which is that the article should call for those who feel ripped off to contact TAPS to request a refund and not what is actually being asked for (to email SAPS), particularly as TAPS has taken steps to address the issues.

You can't represent a group who have not asked to be represented. In the case of the TAPS donors, if they had been emailing SAPS saying "I asked for a refund and was told to go away, please help me", then it would be prudent to expose this to the public. But in the absence of any actual evidence of feelings of injustice from the donors, then it's a non-issue looking for glory.
 
tkingdoll said:
Which is fine, but then we're back to an earlier point I made which is that the article should call for those who feel ripped off to contact TAPS to request a refund and not what is actually being asked for (to email SAPS), particularly as TAPS has taken steps to address the issues.

You can't represent a group who have not asked to be represented. In the case of the TAPS donors, if they had been emailing SAPS saying "I asked for a refund and was told to go away, please help me", then it would be prudent to expose this to the public. But in the absence of any actual evidence of feelings of injustice from the donors, then it's a non-issue looking for glory.
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Point taken again. Still a business or organization misrepresenting themselves and operating as a Non-Profit when they are not - and admit they did - is still misrepresentation. Even when no one complains, it's still illegal.

It may be a non-issue looking for glory, but that's the role of many watchdogs and whislteblowers. No one complained of $700 hammers from Sears paid for with tax money by the Pentagon, until someone finally stood up and brought it to the attention of the public. Then, of course, everyone howled.
 
The Vampire said:
Point taken again. Still a business or organization misrepresenting themselves and operating as a Non-Profit when they are not - and admit they did - is still misrepresentation. Even when no one complains, it's still illegal.

It may be a non-issue looking for glory, but that's the role of many watchdogs and whislteblowers. No one complained of $700 hammers from Sears paid for with tax money by the Pentagon, until someone finally stood up and brought it to the attention of the public. Then, of course, everyone howled.
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That's cause it was the Pentagon and no-one likes paying taxes.

But fine, bring on the evidence that the TAPS donations were spent on moonpies and penny whistles, and a handful of folk will be suitably outraged, I'm sure.
 
tkingdoll said:
That's cause it was the Pentagon and no-one likes paying taxes.

But fine, bring on the evidence that the TAPS donations were spent on moonpies and penny whistles, and a handful of folk will be suitably outraged, I'm sure.
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Shouldn't you give her a chance to present any evidence she may have? You do realize TAPS has a very large following with ghost hunting "TAPS Family" groups in every state, don't you?
 
The Vampire said:
Shouldn't you give her a chance to present any evidence she may have? You do realize TAPS has a very large following with ghost hunting "TAPS Family" groups in every state, don't you?
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Nope, all the information I have is from the article. If TAPS is a hugely influential body with the potential to do immense (but as yet, unstated) damage, that needs to be told as part of the story. No background, no context.

I kind of assumed the article WAS the evidence...
 
Ok then. I took the RI Secretary of State at their word and the GS as the law. I'll just let it go.

Thanks for the reminder. If I see someone snatch your purse, I won't call a cop. At the end of the day, I really have no evidence.

BTW-I have a Sears hammer. Slightly used, and only $650. Interested?
 
The Vampire said:
Ok then. I took the RI Secretary of State at their word and the GS as the law. I'll just let it go.

Thanks for the reminder. If I see someone snatch your purse, I won't call a cop. At the end of the day, I really have no evidence.

BTW-I have a Sears hammer. Slightly used, and only $650. Interested?
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So TAPS asking for donations is the same as stealing a purse?

I'm not sure this conversation should be going down that route though, walls have ears and TAPS may be reading with 'libel' in mind.

As silly as your comparison is, I will point out that eyewitness testimony in a purse-snatching is indeed evidence, and then move along.

Sadly, the law has scant enough resource to prosecute in cases like this, and resources are often better spent elsewhere on genuine scammers and big time tax evaders.

For example, in the UK, the Fraudulent Mediums Act is flouted to an insane degree, including on national TV, but it's too small fry to bother going after because the cost of pursuing outweighs the alleged damage.
 
This is the US though.

Forming NPs must be done at the state level. I'm sure that's a bit different than in the UK.

And, yes, in the US, States will go after improperly formed Non Profits. Every state's Secretary of State office governs the formation on Corporations, Non Profits, LLCs, LLPs, and so on. Taxation is levied at both the state and federal level. That's what I've been saying in all my posts. This information is public record. People are free to question the Secretary of State's office to see if a NP is legitimate before donating. Calling yourself a NP and not filing this paper work is illegal. People who find companies will questionable NP status can most certainly call the state's Secretary of State office to verify the information. If they are not registered, a complaint may be filed.

As for libel, TAPS has already admitted they did not register as a Non-Profit.
 
Boy, Jason wasted no time putting htat scathing letter on his myspace page. He is sure painting himself and TAPS as victims here. And of course all the faithful are flocking to his defense.
The stalker thing is disturbing, tho. I can see why he is upset about his address being shown.
 
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