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Taoism Thoughts

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Great knowledge sees all in one.
Small knowledge breaks down into the many

When the body sleeps, the soul is enfolded in One.
When the body wakes, the openings begin to function.

They resound with every encounter
With all the varied business of life, the strivings of the heart;

Men are blocked, perplexed, lost in doubt.
Little fears eat away their peace of heart.
Great fears swallow them whole,
Arrows shot at a target: hit and miss, right and wrong.
That is what men call judgment, decision.

Their pronouncements are as final
As treaties between emperors.
Oh, they make their point!
Yet their arguments fall faster and feebler
Than dead leaves in autumn and winter.
Their talk flows out like urine,
Never to be recovered.

They stand at last, blocked, bound, and gagged,
Choked up like old drain pipes.
The mind fails. It shall not see light again.


Pleasure and rage
Sadness and joy
Hopes and regrets
Change and stability
Weakness and decision
Impatience and sloth:
All are sounds from the same flute,
All mushrooms from the same wet mold.
Day and night follow one another and come upon us
Without our seeing how they sprout!

Enough! Enough!
Early and late we meet the "that"
From which "these" all grow!

If there were no "that"
There would be no "this."
If there were no "this"
There would be nothing for all these winds to play on.
So far can we go.
But how shall we understand
What brings it about?

One may suppose the True Governor to be behind it all.
That such a power works I can believe.
I cannot see his form.

He acts, but has no form.
 
Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
 
corplinx said:
Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
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It could be.

Most wise thoughts aren't written or uttered by people with multiple degrees, but rather by 'stupid' people who aren't yet indoctrinated into status quo beliefs.

The only difference between the taodejing and her notebook is that the taodejing has ben around for thousands of years.
 
Whodini, Whodini
Finds the yin in the yang
Thinks the yin is the yang
And gives up.
 
Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
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Hehehe! … that really cracked me up.

But seriously speaking (and without reference to Whodini’s opening post in this thread) … I use to think that Whodini was a knucklehead, but I must confess I was all-wrong about him. In my opinion, he is actually a very bright guy, and he is a lot more skeptical then I originally gave him credit for. I find him to be one of the more lucid, original, and free-thinker members of this forum.
 
Any inner wisdom a person gains that is expressed through vague, contradictory verbs and nouns is not gained as a result of words alone. True enlightenment is, I believe, not possible to convey through words. I cannot describe how I think the things i do; the same whay I can enjoy a song, but not feel the same inspiration of creativity the artist did when writing it.

I'll admit, i don't know much about the subject... these are jsut my opinions. What are the concepts behind Taoism? I am very eager to understand what it means.
 
Franko wrote:

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I use to think that Whodini was a knucklehead, but I must confess I was all-wrong about him. In my opinion, he is actually a very bright guy, and he is a lot more skeptical then I originally gave him credit for. I find him to be one of the more lucid, original, and free-thinker members of this forum.
----


Thanks Franko.

While we don't agree on many points, Franko has encouraged me to be more critical of my own beliefs, and the beliefs of others, and to challenge the status quo more.
 
Whodini said:



It could be.

Most wise thoughts aren't written or uttered by people with multiple degrees, but rather by 'stupid' people who aren't yet indoctrinated into status quo beliefs.

The only difference between the taodejing and her notebook is that the taodejing has ben around for thousands of years.
Click to expand...

Depends on your definition of 'wisdom.' I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; poetry is poetry, a form of art. Just because something sounds mysterious, confusing, or artistic does not mean it is wise. Personally, I would call the work of serious philosophers 'wisdom.'

Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.
 
TheERK,


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I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom;
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I don't either. I equate the notions expressed in that particular piece of poetry as wisdom.


----
Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.
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Actually, it is closer to the truth. Once people become indoctrinated in their beliefs, they turn stupid. However, the people who start out stupid tend to be intelligent in the end.

If you disagree, just say you disagree. Don't call it trolling when it obviously isn't.
 
Whodini,

Just because some smart people are closed-minded does not mean that all or even most are. One people become indoctrined, yes, they become...well, closed-minded. I wouldn't say stupid. But we are not talking about people being indoctrined, we are talking about people being smart. Your words implied that smart people are closed-minded, which is not true.

Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, and, if there is any trend within that, it's probably that the smarter you are the more open minded you are.

Perhaps it wasn't trolling, but to me it sounded like an attempt to irritate intelligent people by calling them, in effect, dumber than dumb people.
 
TheERK said:

Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, and, if there is any trend within that, it's probably that the smarter you are the more open minded you are.
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I recall the quote, "Being open-minded about your irrational beliefs does not make them any less irrational."
 
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Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded,
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Yeah, I agree with that.
 
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Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
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Thanks for affirming my beliefs.

When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;
 
Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts

Whodini said:


When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;
Click to expand...

Of course this is completely specious, because it can be claimed for absolutely any lunatic belief anyone could possibly think up.

In short, what possible reaction wouldn't "confirm" your beliefs?

It is like the gnomes that when looked at disappear instantly - nothing can ever prove they aren't really there. It is completely unfalsifiable - it cannot, even in principle, be disproved. Oh yes, and I should note it is also begging the question.


Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said. It could mean nearly anything, so if you find a way to show one particular interpretation right then one can simply claim that isn't really what it means - if you think it wrong, then you just don't understand it. Which can, of course, be applied to absolutely any possible belief with just as much validity.

There are more logically possible statements then there are actually true statements - such vague pap doesn't help one know which is which whatsoever.


Oh yes, and I forgot the equally undefeatable counter to absolutely anything:

He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know.
 
Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts

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Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said.
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How so?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts

Whodini said:
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Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said.
----


How so?
Click to expand...

Largely due to vagueness, the switching of definition/meaning of a word midsentance, and statements which are logically contradictory (which, when intentional, seems to be for the effect such things bring about - what is being said isn't what matters, only its effect...but of course, how can you known which is which? Were they just full of it, or is there "something else"? It is that opened-endedness which is both the most interesting part, and the most dangerous as any claim can be wrapped in it and it is nearly impossible to deal with thoroughly, without neccessarily leaving some weasel-room to slip out of being proven wrong.).

The same effect can be found in the I Ching - it answers all questions to it, because it doesn't answer any of them; it is wide-open enough to allow you to come up with your own answer, and directed enough to keep you from just sitting there empty-mindedly. Then, any bit of knowledge or wisdom of action is thus attributed to the I Ching, or what have you, even though it was the person doing the reading/divining that came up with it.

The same thing is apparent in nearly all similarly formulated slightly-meaningful but mostly ambiguous things, from Kabala to...well, every mystical tradition there is. While there often is something really meaningful there...how can you tell which is crap and which isn't? By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway.

They can be useful tools, but they are so easily misused and bring one to total confusion. I suppose that is why they typically emphasize both keeping at it and finding a teacher - specifically someone to smack you when you've missed the point.
 
TheERK said:


Depends on your definition of 'wisdom.' I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; poetry is poetry, a form of art. Just because something sounds mysterious, confusing, or artistic does not mean it is wise. Personally, I would call the work of serious philosophers 'wisdom.'

Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.
Click to expand...

Come on Erk chill out! Whodini is perfectly correct. And even if he wasn't he's just expressing his honest opionion. It's absurd to call someone a troll for expressing their honest opinion.
 
TheERK said:


Perhaps it wasn't trolling, but to me it sounded like an attempt to irritate intelligent people by calling them, in effect, dumber than dumb people.
Click to expand...

Well it didn't irritate me at all.
 
Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts

Whodini said:
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Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
----


Thanks for affirming my beliefs.

When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;
Click to expand...

precisely! :)
 
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