Surface debacle

[icerat]

They are not too terrible on a tablet. But, iPad and Android do it better.

I have an Android tablet, a windows phone, and an android phone. Windows phone does it better.

Haven't tried a windows tablet enough to judge, but it's a similar approach across all platforms.

When you start Windows 8, without any 3rd party utilities to change anything, where is the first place it always takes you?

The start menu

And, on that screen, how many of the icons go MUI apps, instead of Desktop apps, by default? (Including those for Internet access and e-mail, etc.)

That behaviour has changed in 8.1. I don't think it was a deliberate push towards MUI, I think it was a myopic focus on Surface.

What interface do you see splashed across all the advertisements for Windows 8?

The start menu. Mind you, can't say I've ever seen anything but a print ad for windows 8 on non-touch devices.

What items were removed from the Desktop interface, once you do get there?

An unnecessary start button. Now unfortunately returned.

For similar, perhaps even less superficial reasons, there is no reason why the MUI version IE had to be designed that way

It uses up less screen real estate, which is important on touch screens and tablets.

, and also pushed onto people using Desktop machines. (Don't say it isn't being pushed: That's what the icon on the Start Screen goes to, even for Desktop machines!)

As above, stupid decision, but I disagree they did it to try and force desktop users to use MUI. They were focused on touch devices and stupidly forgot about, particularly, early adopters who would update existing non-touch hardware.

 

[Wowbagger]

I have an Android tablet, a windows phone, and an android phone. Windows phone does it better.

Android has a single task list for everything. Windows 8 uses two different ones, if you use MUI and Desktop applications.

Android keeps a persistent clock and status bar at the top. Windows 8 does not.

The interface Android has for multiple windows varies between devices, right now. But, for the popular Galaxy S4, it works a lot better than the one for Windows 8. (Demo: http://www.androidcentral.com/using-multi-window-samsung-galaxy-s4 . Think about how cool it would have been if Windows did it that way!)

That behaviour has changed in 8.1. I don't think it was a deliberate push towards MUI, I think it was a myopic focus on Surface.

It seems you're trying to save face by presenting my arguments using different wording.

How does a "focus on Surface" differ from a "push towards MUI", exactly?

Nevermind, don't answer that. You can call it a "push towards MUI", if you prefer. It's still a bone-headed idea, all around.

The start menu. Mind you, can't say I've ever seen anything but a print ad for windows 8 on non-touch devices.

The interface ain't configured differently when it is on a non-touch device.

An unnecessary start button.

What does the removal of the Start button tell you about what they were attempting to push onto the user?

It uses up less screen real estate, which is important on touch screens and tablets.

That makes sense..... for tablets and some touch screens. (Not large touch screens)

But, the interface ain't any different for Desktop users. And, that button on the Start Screen goes to the MUI version of IE for Desktop users, just as much as it does for tablet users.

As above, stupid decision, but I disagree they did it to try and force desktop users to use MUI. They were focused on touch devices and stupidly forgot about, particularly, early adopters who would update existing non-touch hardware.

We seem to agree it was stupid. We just have different ways of expressing it.

Let me know when you have some arguments that are against what I am writing.

 

[icerat]

Android has a single task list for everything. Windows 8 uses two different ones, if you use MUI and Desktop applications.

Not 100% true, task manager shows all of them, but yes, I agree the two task bars are suboptimal. The design challenge is that buttons on the desktop toolbar are too small to be practical on a tablet, but the MUI buttons are too big for the desktop mode.

How would you do it?

Android keeps a persistent clock and status bar at the top. Windows 8 does not.

Depends on the implementation. On my galaxy note 2 10.2 it's (a) on the bottom (b) disappears in a number of apps

The interface Android has for multiple windows varies between devices, right now. But, for the popular Galaxy S4, it works a lot better than the one for Windows 8. (Demo: http://www.androidcentral.com/using-multi-window-samsung-galaxy-s4 . Think about how cool it would have been if Windows did it that way!)

Umm .... that pretty much is how windows does it in MUI.

Nevermind, don't answer that. You can call it a "push towards MUI", if you prefer. It's still a bone-headed idea, all around.

What I mean is they're focussed on touch and hybrid devices, because that's where the market is pushing them. I do not believe they're consciously trying to push MUI on existing non-touch desktop users.

The interface ain't configured differently when it is on a non-touch device.

What does the removal of the Start button tell you about what they were attempting to push onto the user?

As mentioned numerous times before, I consider the start menu to be the start menu. It is not the MUI, which has, for example the split screen abilities.

 

[commandlinegamer]

But, even if they all are, I don't think they will be used a lot on large monitors (the kind used for desktop machines and television screens), mostly because of the "gorilla arm" effect (look it up), which is unlikely to go away any time soon.

Must be awful to be an actor/actress on CSI: Miami*. All those massive touch-screen displays. And the multiple takes!

* - Other shows with ludicrous levels of eye-candy tech are available.

 

[BenBurch]

Win8 and it's ilk could be the Best Thing Ever, but since they clearly have no idea how to sell them, it's not going to matter.

If I could take over Microsoft tomorrow I would announce Windows 7 Forever Edition which would be Win7 Pro with perpetual updates and both a Win XP and Win 8 virtual machine available.

 

[Wowbagger]

Not 100% true, task manager shows all of them, but yes, I agree the two task bars are suboptimal. The design challenge is that buttons on the desktop toolbar are too small to be practical on a tablet, but the MUI buttons are too big for the desktop mode.

How would you do it?

One taskbar with buttons that change size according to which interface you are using: They become larger when using Touch, thinner when using the Desktop.

Or, we can keep both styles of taskbars as separate, just have both showing all the apps; and one can be active at a time.

Depends on the implementation. On my galaxy note 2 10.2 it's (a) on the bottom (b) disappears in a number of apps

It will disappear for apps that are Full Screen. But, that's fine. It is still considered a "persistent clock" by general design standards. Something Win8 doesn't really have, (though the Phone version does).

Umm .... that pretty much is how windows does it in MUI.

No it's not. Win8 does not have buttons for resizing and closing the windows. The window resizing in Win8 is limited to certain sizes, unlike Android where it is arbitrary. And, the side-bar list of compatible apps (which is like a compact Start Menu, if you think about it) does not exist in Win8, etc. Win8 only has the full-screen Start Screen.

I do not believe they're consciously trying to push MUI on existing non-touch desktop users.

Oh, I see! They must have accidentally put all the MUI apps front and center on Desktop machines, and replaced the Desktop's Start Menu with the tablet-friendlier full-screen Start Screen. And, they must have accidentally removed on-screen, clickable queues from many places on the interface.

Whoops!!!!

As mentioned numerous times before, I consider the start menu to be the start menu. It is not the MUI, which has, for example the split screen abilities.

It IS part of the Modern UI. The Desktop is considered an "app" within the MUI system.

You can easily tell because the Start Screen is full-screen and styled according to the Modern UI.

But, in case you want to go deeper: The Start Screen was developed through the XAML/MUI paradigm, and functions through the same persistent-state APIs designed for MUI apps, etc.

You can ignore all that, if you want to. You have the freedom to taxonimize the parts of the OS as you wish. Doing so doesn't help address the issues I take with it. It's just "re-arranging the deck chairs", so to speak.

But, I find it more useful to consider the Start Screen as part of the MUI because it helps explain a lot about what went wrong in the OS's design. And, it helps us make better predictions about how various parts of the OS will behave in certain ways, etc.

 

[Zelenius]

I am honestly not surprised at all that Surface is a disaster. Microsoft really needs to clean house. This goes far beyond Balmer not being the man for the job. Shareholders should in the very least remove Balmer, or better yet tar and feather him. Besides this, the company's culture is seriously screwed up and stale, too many people there still think it is the 1990's and its employees are encouraged to eat each other alive. This is a classic example of a company becoming a victim of its own success.

What little I've seen of Windows 8 and Surface makes me glad I'm a Linux/Android user. Of all the Windows users I know, I'd say 9/10 hate Windows 8, and none have bought a Surface, though a few considered it.

Windows 8 and Surface - Another victory for Linux! The way this is going, its like Microsoft challenged Linux to a duel, and all Microsoft manages to do is shoot itself in the foot several times.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I have to say I was surprised at the bold direction Microsoft decided to go in, and I actually agreed with minimalist 2D animation versus 3D eye candy.

And Ubuntu did the Unity desktop for desktop and tablets and broke their user base first ! Microsoft is always behind Linux . And there is still no native support for virtual desktops.

Actually, In terms of UI/UX I feel that the Linux desktop has plateaued for the past few years. Aside from Unity/Gnome3 debacles, most of the desktop momentum has been for... more of the same.

 

[megaresp]

And Ubuntu did the Unity desktop for desktop and tablets and broke their user base first...In terms of UI/UX I feel that the Linux desktop has plateaued for the past few years. Aside from Unity/Gnome3 debacles, most of the desktop momentum has been for... more of the same.

More of the same, yes. But this comes from users rather than developers, and is no different to user resistance to Win8. And even before Gnome/Unity, KDE went through the same 'pain' when it launched KDE 4. I doubt the KDE team will rush to devise a shiny new way of doing things after that experience.

In my view the 'problem' isn't with developers or a lack of good ideas. It's human resistance to change, especially in the absence of immediate and obvious benefits. And it extends well beyond the world of user interfaces. Remember 'new' coke?

Having said all that, Unity (especially in its 13.04 incarnation) is absolutely brilliant and I'm very glad Canonical have persisted with it. Turns out they really did know better .

KDE, Canonical, Gnome and Microsoft have all made the same 'mistake' in my view. They got carried away by the excitement of their shiny new ideas, and didn't think about the massive disruption they were about to cause to millions of people's daily workflow.

ETA: I wonder if the changes in iOS7 will generate a similar lack of enthusiasm from a large established user-base that can no longer find anything?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

iOS7 is mostly just a change of paint. The only thing the people are revolting over is the ugly stock icon set for the apps that they don't use anyway .

But it actually did cause me to jump ship because it was just too much of the same .

I'm actually kinda into UI design right now. Maybe I'll start another thread.[/whiteandnerdy]