Suicide

[The Atheist]

What is with this subject?

Is there any nonc-onflicting data on what causes teenagers to commit suicide? Some cases have obvious causes, but a recent case here highlighted that there sometimes isn't a ready or even rational answer.

I've heard many suicide prevention campaigners argue that discussion of the subject itself can lead to young people topping themselves. Meanwhile, other campaigners try to raise awareness of it and skeptics organise pretend suicide attempts to use the media to focus on a different subject entirely.

One of my boy's ex-girlfriends came from a home where three family members had committed suicide. They were a decile 1 family with a history of teenage pregnancy - my son's girlfriend's grandparents were several years younger than me!

I'm also led to believe that while there's a huge focus on teenage suicide, men in the 45-54 age group are actually the most likely to find pull the plug. This age also contributes to many deaths which are suicide but not listed as such - blokes who hop in their car and drive it into a 40 tonne truck or a train/off a cilff.

Take suicide "warning signs", from the same site:

I think most people in the population fit one or more of those signs a lot of the time, but most of us aren't suicidal.

Why is female suicide down 43% from its peak while men are only down 16% from the peak rate? Given that any media-based attempts at lowering suicide rates are not gender-specific, what have chicks done that blokes haven't?

NZ has a particularly bad suicide rate among OECD countries, while living in the Caribbean seems to be a reasonably effective antidote to it. Maybe smoking ganja lowers the desire to top yourself?

 

[John Jones]

Men have alays had higher suicide rates. Figures from the US show that women attempt suicide 10 times more often than men, but men successfully kill themselves 4 times as often as women.

The reason is that women tend to use drug overdoes while men tend to use guns.

Have your so-called typical prescription drugs become less toxic? I don't know.

 

[Cobalt]

What is with this subject?

Is there any nonc-onflicting data on what causes teenagers to commit suicide? Some cases have obvious causes, but a recent case here highlighted that there sometimes isn't a ready or even rational answer.

No, probably not. You can't exactly ask the person why, eh?

I've heard many suicide prevention campaigners argue that discussion of the subject itself can lead to young people topping themselves. Meanwhile, other campaigners try to raise awareness of it and skeptics organise pretend suicide attempts to use the media to focus on a different subject entirely.

That never was a factor in my recent attempt.

I'm also led to believe that while there's a huge focus on teenage suicide, men in the 45-54 age group are actually the most likely to find pull the plug. This age also contributes to many deaths which are suicide but not listed as such - blokes who hop in their car and drive it into a 40 tonne truck or a train/off a cilff.

Midlife crises?

Take suicide "warning signs", from the same site:

I think most people in the population fit one or more of those signs a lot of the time, but most of us aren't suicidal.

Yeah, true. But personally, before my attempt, I was going through almost all of those for about four months. And at the time it was hard to see. Plus, I was quite adept at just faking it. Smile and nod, as it were.

Why is female suicide down 43% from its peak while men are only down 16% from the peak rate? Given that any media-based attempts at lowering suicide rates are not gender-specific, what have chicks done that blokes haven't?

I have no clue. However, an interesting idea discussed while I was in a crisis center was that men, in general, just don't talk enough, and it causes a steady emotional deterioration.

NZ has a particularly bad suicide rate among OECD countries, while living in the Caribbean seems to be a reasonably effective antidote to it. Maybe smoking ganja lowers the desire to top yourself?

And raises the desire for munchies.

 

[The Atheist]

Men have alays had higher suicide rates. Figures from the US show that women attempt suicide 10 times more often than men, but men successfully kill themselves 4 times as often as women.

The reason is that women tend to use drug overdoes while men tend to use guns.

Have your so-called typical prescription drugs become less toxic? I don't know.

How serious is an attempt involving drug ODs?

I know a bloke who tried to top himself tying a curtain cord around his neck to hang from which would have broken under 20 kg of pull. Was that a "suicide attempt" or just a plain old call for help?

I think prescription drugs have had somewhat better controls put on them, which has probably helped. If someone is serious, though, surely they will actually manage it regardless? There are plenty of bridges to jump off.

Do women like to be "cleaner" in suicide? Do they actually think of the person who has to find and clean up the mess?

 

[John Jones]

How serious is an attempt involving drug ODs?



I think prescription drugs have had somewhat better controls put on them, which has probably helped. If someone is serious, though, surely they will actually manage it regardless? There are plenty of bridges to jump off.

Do women like to be "cleaner" in suicide? Do they actually think of the person who has to find and clean up the mess?

I don't know how many of women's attempted drug ODs are serious.

As far as cleaning up after a suicide. It's not exactly a fun way to spend the day. Does anyone take this into account? I don't know that either.

I've learned at least two things in life: Nobody likes to hear a woman fart or a man cry. That may have something to do with men being reticent to talk about feelings of worthlessness.

 

[The Atheist]

No, probably not. You can't exactly ask the person why, eh?

Not after a successful attempt, no.

That never was a factor in my recent attempt.

Well, I'm bloody pleased it failed, but having got thus far, will you tell us what was a factor?

Midlife crises?

Pretty sure. Seems counter-productive to me, but I'm sure some blokes see it as an option. I see that as a lack of education that suicide is a good answer. At that stage of life, one really ought to have fractionally more clues than thinking death's a good option. Other than terminal illness, of course - I don't count that as suicide, which is why I haven't factored it in, but no doubt it skews the statistics, possibly at that age group as well.

Yeah, true. But personally, before my attempt, I was going through almost all of those for about four months. And at the time it was hard to see. Plus, I was quite adept at just faking it. Smile and nod, as it were.

Well, that's helpful!

What age group are you?

I think I can understand the keeping it hidden, but I'd like to hear you reasoning behind it. Wanting to avoid getting help makes it damned hard to help! Also, that would count as totally uncommunicative and maybe a bigger warning.

I have no clue. However, an interesting idea discussed while I was in a crisis center was that men, in general, just don't talk enough, and it causes a steady emotional deterioration.

I'm sure it's right that men talk less, although whether that is a good or bad thing, I don't know. Is one the cause of the other? And if so, which way round? You didn't want to talk because you were suicidal.

And raises the desire for munchies.

Holy ******

We just cured suicide and created another obesity epidemic!

 

[Cain]

Anybody have an informed take on weather and suicide. I've heard conflicting answers, some reports claiming suicide rates increase. If I recall correctly, Costa Rica recently topped a happiness index for 2009, and some attributed their ranking to the weather. Meanwhile, Scandinavian countries have always had this reputation that dreary weather plus having all of their basic needs satisfied, leads to boozing and self-cancellation.

 

[The Atheist]

Anybody have an informed take on weather and suicide.

I did notice that on the list of suicide by country, there seems a general trend that colder countries feature higher in the list than warmer places - with the odd exception.

 

[Dancing David]

What is with this subject?

Is there any nonc-onflicting data on what causes teenagers to commit suicide? Some cases have obvious causes, but a recent case here highlighted that there sometimes isn't a ready or even rational answer.

The issues are threefold:
-impluse control
-judgement
-insight

So while it may appear that a particular event triggers a suicide attempt, there have usually been suicidal ideations for a while.
The three above are the factors done in a crisis assesment, then in no particular order
-is there a plan
-past history
-access to method
-perceived lethality of method
-substance intoxication

I've heard many suicide prevention campaigners argue that discussion of the subject itself can lead to young people topping themselves.

No more than discussion of diabetes leads to people not treating diabets.

Meanwhile, other campaigners try to raise awareness of it and skeptics organise pretend suicide attempts to use the media to focus on a different subject entirely.

One of my boy's ex-girlfriends came from a home where three family members had committed suicide.

that is sad, prevention is not as good as intervention. I am sorry.

They were a decile 1 family with a history of teenage pregnancy - my son's girlfriend's grandparents were several years younger than me!

I'm also led to believe that while there's a huge focus on teenage suicide, men in the 45-54 age group are actually the most likely to find pull the plug. This age also contributes to many deaths which are suicide but not listed as such - blokes who hop in their car and drive it into a 40 tonne truck or a train/off a cilff.

yes some of the factors are
-male
-over fifty

Part of it is access to handguns, but there are other factors.

female lethality has risen as they are using more hand guns now.

Take suicide "warning signs", from the same site:

I think most people in the population fit one or more of those signs a lot of the time, but most of us aren't suicidal.

Well, the real warning signs are
-depression with suicidal ideation and a plan

but the one to watch for is
-sudden lack of depression and giving away all your stuff

That is why prevention mainly is talking about suicide and encouraing people to seek intervention.

Why is female suicide down 43% from its peak while men are only down 16% from the peak rate? Given that any media-based attempts at lowering suicide rates are not gender-specific, what have chicks done that blokes haven't?

Usually comfort with guns and social connection.

NZ has a particularly bad suicide rate among OECD countries, while living in the Caribbean seems to be a reasonably effective antidote to it. Maybe smoking ganja lowers the desire to top yourself?

There are many strange spots with high concentrations, Laramie WY used to be one.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I've never heard any suicide prevention campaigns that argue you shouldn't even mention the topic. There are guidelines on reporting suicide in the media which advise not mentioning the method, not sensationalising etc as this sort of coverage can lead to copycat suicides (Werther effect/suicide contagion):

http://www.sprc.org/library/sreporting.pdf

 

[Bikewer]

One of the things we are taught in CIT (Crisis Intervention Team ) training is to directly ask the person we are dealing with..."Do you want to kill yourself?" Not, "Are you planning to hurt yourself?" or something similar.
The answer will likely be "No." (I don't want to hurt myself; I want to die.)

In police work, we deal with suicide and attempts quite a bit. Here at the university, factors for the young people often include relationship break-ups and are often presaged by a drinking episode.
Often, the "attempts" are pretty weak; a few scratches across the wrist, or an "overdose" of prescription medicine which is not really deadly, like tylenol.
Successful suicides here over the years have included hanging, electrocution (an engineering student) and throwing oneself from a tall building.

We had a suicide in our family 2 years ago, 16-year-old step-grandson. Depressed over a break-up, but likely suffering from depression in general; the mother is bipolar.

We know that young people are often suffering from mental difficulties caused by the literal re-wiring of the brain that takes place during the teen years. This often results in symptoms that mimic depression or manic behavior.

One of the very first calls I took when I started police work was a 16-year-old girl who had run away from home and attempted suicide by wrist cutting. While filling out the requisit form, I asked her if she had attempted suicide before. "Oh yeah, 5 or 6 times."
Once by hanging.....

 

[Dancing David]

Misread delete

 

[Kariboo]

or an "overdose" of prescription medicine which is not really deadly, like tylenol.

Unfortunately Tylenol is actually quite deadly in relatively small doses. Anything over about 7000 mg (about 15 pills) could kill you by causing liver failure. I believe the window for successful treatment is about 8 hours after you swallow them. After that there is not much to be done.

 

[Dancing David]

I misread that as well, he is saying that Tylenol is lethal, but many people chose a non-lethal presciption.

Which also why you prescibe an SSRI rather than a TCA if you can, one bottle will make you sick the other will kill you.

 

[Cobalt]

Well, I'm bloody pleased it failed, but having got thus far, will you tell us what was a factor?

Well, a three year engagement ended, a situation with some friends got very peculiar, and while they sound small in text they felt bigger to me.

That's always one of the things that annoys me is when people say, "Well that's no reason to kill yourself." Obviously, but, at the time, in that particular mindframe, it was a reason. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Pretty sure. Seems counter-productive to me, but I'm sure some blokes see it as an option. I see that as a lack of education that suicide is a good answer. At that stage of life, one really ought to have fractionally more clues than thinking death's a good option. Other than terminal illness, of course - I don't count that as suicide, which is why I haven't factored it in, but no doubt it skews the statistics, possibly at that age group as well.

Hm, see above.

Well, that's helpful!

What age group are you?

20-24.

I think I can understand the keeping it hidden, but I'd like to hear you reasoning behind it. Wanting to avoid getting help makes it damned hard to help! Also, that would count as totally uncommunicative and maybe a bigger warning.

Personally my reasoning was, "I'm too ****ing smart to have to go to other people for help, I should be able to deal with this on my own." Which is false, and in turn only made it worse, because I felt like a moron and a general sense of uselessness that I couldn't find my own solutions. It's a pride thing, I guess you could say.

Not that I've never asked for help, or tried to reach out, it just felt like a useless exercise.

I'm sure it's right that men talk less, although whether that is a good or bad thing, I don't know. Is one the cause of the other? And if so, which way round? You didn't want to talk because you were suicidal.

I wouldn't say one is the cause of the other, though they certainly don't help each other out. It's always felt like as a male you're just supposed to go deal with things, nothing is supposed to bother you or such. Lose your leg in an accident? Legs are for sissies. Real men hop on one leg. It goes back to a pride issue, I suppose, your manhood (not that manhood) is based on your ability to deal with ****.

Holy ******

We just cured suicide and created another obesity epidemic!

And potentially the people who become obese will develop low self esteem and......dear FSM, become suicidal!


I joke, but seriously, if anyone feels like they need help, by all means, do whatever it takes to get it.

 

[gumboot]

Well, I had a flatmate who was doing her PhD on suicide and decided to come to NZ for her research, and from memory the one striking point she used to make is that the biggest mistake those attempting to address suicide make is to assume there's one primary reason for people committing suicide.

The reasons are myriad and very individual. You can't even narrow it down to "they all commit suicide because they want to die" because a lot of suicidal people don't actually want to die.

The only thing I cant think of as a vague catch-all is that most people who attempt or commit suicide do so because they're in a great deal of pain and they want that pain to stop.

It's of no surprise that NZ's suicide rate is quite high. There is an undeniable dark streak through our culture. You can see it in all of the art we produce, in our films and music, in many, many aspects of our national psyche. I don't entirely know what the cause of that is - there's a saying that the settlers who came to NZ fled Europe to escape history, and were overwhelmed by geography. There's certainly something incredibly dark and ancient about the New Zealand landscape that would have been truly overwhelming to early settlers. The isolation must have been almost unbearable. That sort of environment creates cultural features that are then passed down through generations and filter into the cultural psyche.

The suicide rate amongst middle aged men, is perhaps a greater national disgrace, and something that is seldom ever looked at. I think the explanations for this are probably easier to grasp. New Zealand men are discouraged from talking about feelings or showing weakness. To this day, in many circles talking about male problems or male health is considered bad form. I regularly heard older women talking about the "man cold". Forty years of bottling your emotions and being told any pain your suffering is not a big deal has got to take a toll. Also New Zealand is one of the hardest working countries in the world (second only to Japan, I believe) and despite many changes there's still an element of truth to the old stereotype that the man brings home the money. Add the stress of a high work load and insufficient income (New Zealand income levels are shockingly below other "modern" countries) to those bottled emotions and you're cooking a disaster.

 

[Cobalt]

Well, I had a flatmate who was doing her PhD on suicide and decided to come to NZ for her research, and from memory the one striking point she used to make is that the biggest mistake those attempting to address suicide make is to assume there's one primary reason for people committing suicide.

The reasons are myriad and very individual. You can't even narrow it down to "they all commit suicide because they want to die" because a lot of suicidal people don't actually want to die.

Bolding mine. That's a point which is lost on a lot of people who haven't experienced a depression that deep firsthand.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Lots of things kill people.
People kill people.
Generally, other people.
But not always.

If murder is linked to aggression, why must we suppose self-murder is linked to depression? Given the person most responsible for the failures in your life is generally yourself, why should you not feel aggressive towards that person?

 

[zooterkin]

I did notice that on the list of suicide by country, there seems a general trend that colder countries feature higher in the list than warmer places - with the odd exception.

A monthly breakdown of the figures might be interesting, as I'd assume the amount and quality of the daylight was more of a factor than the temperature.

 

[Dancing David]

The reasons are myriad and very individual. You can't even narrow it down to "they all commit suicide because they want to die" because a lot of suicidal people don't actually want to die.

T ohenly thing I cant think of as a vague catch-all is that most people who attempt or commit suicide do so because they're in a great deal of pain and they want that pain to stop.

.

Yup, that is the basis of crisis intervention.

People feel pain they feel is not going to end and they don't want to deal with.