Study shows acupuncture doesn't work

[bignickel]

If I may, I suspect that Neutrino is positing that we don't know whether the judges were blinded to which subjects had acupuncture done on them, when deciding on who 'improved'.

Thus, their bias pro or con can easily leak in.

 

[drkitten]

If I may, I suspect that Neutrino is positing that we don't know whether the judges were blinded to which subjects had acupuncture done on them, when deciding on who 'improved'.

Judges? In a study of pain relief?

I'd be very surprised if the study used anything other than medication requests or self-reportage by the patients as the dependent variable. In which case the notion of "judges" is somewhat questionable.

 

[bigred]

From today's news


This is very good news, because acupuncture is one quack treatment that seems to be accepted by a fairly large number of otherwise rational people. Of course, pin-heads will still continue to claim that it works for other things. Give it time. They'll all be debunked.

I'm no "pro-acupuncturist" whatsoever, but that is some seriously weak proof/testing. How about just doing a study where it's used and it doesn't show results vs adding it to other remedies already being used, it didn't work quick enough, etc etc.

 

[neutrino_cannon]

If I may, I suspect that Neutrino is positing that we don't know whether the judges were blinded to which subjects had acupuncture done on them, when deciding on who 'improved'.

Thus, their bias pro or con can easily leak in.

Indeed, but if they judgement was done by the patients, who were effectively blind, then it probably doesn't matter.

 

[Rolfe]

Indeed, but if they judgement was done by the patients, who were effectively blind, then it probably doesn't matter.

But that's the point. The inability to blind the operatives is a problem here, because the patients have close contact with the operatives, and it's quite likely that some information about whether someone is getting the real deal or not might leak through.

Rolfe.

 

[neutrino_cannon]

But that's the point. The inability to blind the operatives is a problem here, because the patients have close contact with the operatives, and it's quite likely that some information about whether someone is getting the real deal or not might leak through.

Rolfe.

I hadn't thought of that.

This leaves two alternatives:


Train some folks to think they're doing real acupuncture, when in fact they're just randomly sticking in needles.

or

Break out hose robots!

 

[EdipisReks]

you could always give the patients a frontal leucotomy. properly done, it would probably prevent them from picking up cues from the acupuncturists, but they [the patients] would probably still be able to report on their perceived pain. a release form signed by the patients would probably be a good idea.

 

[neutrino_cannon]

you could always give the patients a frontal leucotomy. properly done, it would probably prevent them from picking up cues from the acupuncturists, but they [the patients] would probably still be able to report on their perceived pain. a release form signed by the patients would probably be a good idea.

Umm... ethics board on line 1 for you.

 

[EdipisReks]

Umm... ethics board on line 1 for you.

tell them i'm out of the office!

 

[neutrino_cannon]

tell them i'm out of the office!

Too late, I told them that it was merely summer vacation, thus explaining your lack of class or principles.


[/bad pun]

That's not to say anything about the potential health effects of major brain surgery clouding the effects of the study.

[/mild derail]

So, any brilliant ideas on how an acupuncture study should be conducted?

 

[Jyera]

From today's news
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Study sticks a pin into the effectiveness of acupuncture therapy
Research finds the ancient remedy offers no greater pain relief than sham treatments

Acupuncture proved no more effective than sham treatments for pain from a common chronic condition, according to a new study.
...
The study concluded that adding acupuncture to other treatments the patients were already using provided no greater pain relief than sham acupuncture treatments, according to the Tuesday issue of Annals of Internal Medicine.
...
In the study, patients in all the groups improved, but very early, after only one or two treatments — far earlier than most acupuncturists would expect an improvement — and then remained at the same level for the rest of the study, Buchwald said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...snipe ...

On second look , I thought there are something doubious.

If the "treatment the patient were already using" were already effective, then there would little additional benefit regardless of whether sham acupunture or acupuncture was used.

If someone has a fever, and was given paracetamol which is effective in lowering the body temperature.
Then adding additional alternative treatment might be insignificant (sham or not-sham).

Especially when "all groups improved very early". "far earlier than most acupuncturists would expect an improvement".
Doesn't that indicate that the "other treatment" has already made this comparison between sham-Acu and Acu invalid?

 

[drkitten]

Re: Re: Study shows acupuncture doesn't work

If the "treatment the patient were already using" were already effective, then there would little additional benefit regardless of whether sham acupunture or acupuncture was used.

That depends on the exact claim being tested.

Some acupuncturists claim that acupuncture alone is an effective treatment for everything up to and including Overheavy Wallet Syndrome.

Other acupuncturists claim that acupuncture is a useful treatment adjunct. From the original story:

Buchwald said acupuncturists [...] often combine it with other forms of therapy.

At the least, this suggests that the "other forms of therapy" with which acupuncture is often combined may be responsible for all or most of the apparent effectiveness.

If someone has a fever, and was given paracetamol which is effective in lowering the body temperature. Then adding additional alternative treatment might be insignificant (sham or not-sham).

Look at it the other way. If someone has a fever, and is given acupuncture to treat it, and then "often" given paracetamol as well, why give the acupuncture in the first place?