Student loan forgiveness and free college are bad ideas.

[rockysmith76]

This is classic right-wing obession with "free riders" nonsense!

Better to not help the masses who deserve help to make sure we don't help someone who doesn't deserve to be helped.

as opposed to left wing outrage with substance or solution. Pot meet kettle.

 

[Disbelief]

Yes and no. There are ways to get out of it, like being on disability, of course a family I know where they could get out of it this was doesn't because the tax bill then is crazy.

It is not yes and no, you can get it discharged in bankruptcy without being on disability even though difficult. The article explains it in detail.

 

[plague311]

It really shouldn't matter if you can discharge it on bankruptcy or not. You shouldn't need to go bankrupt in your mid-20's just to get an education.

People should be able to go to school for what they'd like, but it should also be viable. If the degree has no work force use then stop ******* teaching it. That's on the school as much as anyone else. There shouldn't be unlimited education\funding for education (which there isn't and hasn't been part of anyone's plan that I've seen), because that doesn't help anyone. There are a ton of ways to regulate that.

The idea that student loan forgiveness only benefits the upper class\wealthy is nonsense though. It would help me and the economy because that's where I'd spend the money. I'm certainly not upper class, and I'm a long ******* ways from wealthy. In fact, the people that went to tech school, like me, are probably the people it would benefit the most. Forgiving $90k to a family that makes $400k\yr means little in comparison to forgiving $20-30k for a family that makes $70k\yr.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It really shouldn't matter if you can discharge it on bankruptcy or not. You shouldn't need to go bankrupt in your mid-20's just to get an education.

We just have to stop lying about social mobility and telling people education is a way to a better life. You will not have a better life than your parents likely worse and there is nothing that can change that. That is the truth people need to accept.

 

[applecorped]

Better than a proletariat that those like you would ram down everyones throat because the USSR worked out ever so well.

 

[plague311]

We just have to stop lying about social mobility and telling people education is a way to a better life. You will not have a better life than your parents likely worse and there is nothing that can change that. That is the truth people need to accept.

This is the polar opposite of my experience. I make more money than both of my parents. My mother went to college and is a RN. My father finished a year of tech school and decided it wasn't for him.

Education was the key to a better life in my anecdotal experience. The year before I went to tech school I worked full time at Amazon and made $31.5k that year. After graduation the first job I took started me at $42k. My schooling cost me $25k. It's a no brainer to me that going to school made my life significantly better, but that's because I chose a viable degree, in a needed field in the city I live in.

 

[ponderingturtle]

This is the polar opposite of my experience. I make more money than both of my parents. My mother went to college and is a RN. My father finished a year of tech school and decided it wasn't for him.

Education was the key to a better life in my anecdotal experience. The year before I went to tech school I worked full time at Amazon and made $31.5k that year. After graduation the first job I took started me at $42k. My schooling cost me $25k. It's a no brainer to me that going to school made my life significantly better, but that's because I chose a viable degree, in a needed field in the city I live in.

As opposed to the fools teaching those courses of course, the idiots deserve the starvation wages combined with massive debt, that is what teaching college is all about. The smart ones keep waiting tables, it pays better than teaching college.

 

[calebprime]

Oboe players are good at imitating turkey calls, so they are useful for attracting game. They are also good at carving. This talent with a knife can also make them someone you don't want to have as an enemy. It's best to just subsidize them and let them alone, let them do what they want.

 

[plague311]

As opposed to the fools teaching those courses of course, the idiots deserve the starvation wages combined with massive debt, that is what teaching college is all about. The smart ones keep waiting tables, it pays better than teaching college.

I have no idea what the **** you're talking about because every time you bring something like this up it completely refutes my experiences. Maybe where I live it's completely and entirely different than the rest of the nation. It's possible, not likely, but possible. According to statistics:

The Teacher Vocational Education role earned an average salary of $58989 in Minnesota in 2020.

You're not going to get rich, but it's more than enough to live off of in Eastern North Dakota and Western Minnesota.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I have no idea what the **** you're talking about because every time you bring something like this up it completely refutes my experiences. Maybe where I live it's completely and entirely different than the rest of the nation. It's possible, not likely, but possible. According to statistics:

Look into adjunct salaries, it is a part time job that pays typically a few thousand per course taught with no benefits and no idea if the job will be there next semester.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/it-keeps-you-nice-and-disposable-the-plight-of-adjunct-professors/2019/02/14/6cd5cbe4-024d-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

 

[ahhell]

This is the polar opposite of my experience. I make more money than both of my parents. My mother went to college and is a RN. My father finished a year of tech school and decided it wasn't for him.

Education was the key to a better life in my anecdotal experience. The year before I went to tech school I worked full time at Amazon and made $31.5k that year. After graduation the first job I took started me at $42k. My schooling cost me $25k. It's a no brainer to me that going to school made my life significantly better, but that's because I chose a viable degree, in a needed field in the city I live in.

I make 3 to 4 times the maximum salary of either of my parents, for the most part because instead of dropping out of high school, I got a BS.

Its been pretty clear for a good 40 years, and education in some fields will improve your chances of having a good quality of life. No education or an education in some other fields, not so much.

 

[Giordano]

I don't know where you are in respect of "the state having trained . . . " I am calling for tuition fees to be paid by students (largely or entirely) not by tax. Under that idea the state doesn't have much claim to tax anyone.

Whatever tax arrangements are used to attempt to shift costs and benefits around, they only work partially, for example an extra tax on employers for hiring graduates might dent the same graduates' earnings but might also depress wages generally or raise prices etc. I am more bothered by taxes or transfers that outright point in the wrong direction with respect to redistribution, and this is what "free college" funded from general tax does compared to student fees (Or a graduate tax)

It is a pertinent observation that the excess return from a degree that is likely to be captured by graduates is diminishing and not just in the US. That's because everyone wants a piece of it. Academic institutions appear to have the most net power in that struggle in the states.

I am referring to state colleges and universities, which are partially supported by the state government through tax dollars.

The additional salary return from higher education (I refuse to call it "excess") still exists, although perhaps at a reduced rate. Nonetheless if you look at salaries for different jobs there is a clear glass ceiling for almost all jobs not requiring a college level education. For the vast majority of career possibilities the only way to earn a salary over the $35,000 to $60,000 a year range requires a higher education, and the big bucks (over $80,000) usually require additional education beyond that. Owning one's one business can be an exception to this.

Obviously this does raise the question of how much more money can one earn with a college education versus how much money does it cost for that college education. Seem to me that college tuition needs to drop to a fraction of its present cost to make this work. And as a society we should want to have it work - its not as if a growth in non-college job salaries accounts for the reduced differential vs college-job salaries. We want a way for people to once again be about to break through this ceiling, and a higher education appears to be the most likely way they will be able to do it in the future as they have done it in the past. it is not as if low tech jobs will be in increasing demand in the future.

Unfortunately making college tuition affordable again is not going to happen without increases in government support; either directly to the colleges (as existing for state colleges for decades or centuries) or to the students themselves to knock down their tuition costs I favor to zero).

Why is college tuition so high? I'm not certain but I hope to post (speaking as a faculty member at a university) what I know about how money flows at universities and perhaps how some of that accounts for the increases in tuition costs in the past decades. Darn if I know why college costs are so high but I will have to get out of my spa in my third home in Paris and put the champaign away before I have time to post about it.

 

[Giordano]

Nevermind. Post withdrawn.

 

[plague311]

Look into adjunct salaries...*snip*

You didn't say adjunct, you said professor. You're also specifically referring to a part time gig, of which the first thing I found was:

Adjuncts typically earn between $20,000 and $25,000 annually, NPR reports. Compare that to the average salary of $84,303 for full-time instructors and professors, according to the American Association of University Professors. If you make it to the level of full tenured professor, you're looking at a six-figure income

That doesn't say if it's part-time or full-time, but it does mention the instructors as specifically full-time and says they make around $85k. You can live damn near anywhere in the US on $85k a year. I would also say $20-25k annually for a part time job isn't terrible either.

I make 3 to 4 times the maximum salary of either of my parents, for the most part because instead of dropping out of high school, I got a BS.

Its been pretty clear for a good 40 years, and education in some fields will improve your chances of having a good quality of life. No education or an education in some other fields, not so much.

Yup, you have to be responsible with what you decide to do and the field you go into. It's absolutely true that sometimes you won't make money in something that makes you happy all of the time. I'm lucky in that I absolutely love networking and computer technology. I would assume this is also the case in other countries though as well, with free education or not.

 

[Giordano]

I make 3 to 4 times the maximum salary of either of my parents, for the most part because instead of dropping out of high school, I got a BS. Its been pretty clear for a good 40 years, and education in some fields will improve your chances of having a good quality of life. No education or an education in some other fields, not so much.

Same here.

Higher education in the USA has represented the primary way for upward mobility for many decades. I don't see many alternatives. So we need to fix the problems with which we are struggling right now.

And it is true that the chances for and extend of upward mobility are significantly reduced for our children than it was for us. But even the reduced upward mobility that remains still requires higher education.

 

[Francesca R]

The additional salary return from higher education (I refuse to call it "excess") still exists, although perhaps at a reduced rate. [ . . . ] Seem to me that college tuition needs to drop to a fraction of its present cost to make this work.

Excess return means return over investment it’s a dispassionate term; if it is positive then incrementally higher lifetime earnings with a degree exceed the total cost to the student of getting the degree.

It is still positive in general even in the US or was last time I checked so I think your assumption is not correct: the OECD has uniform-ish data across all its member countries updated annually (I can’t link it presently). Of course not every degree is going to give its owner a positive excess return. And plenty of other factors affect that outcome so many individual data points are meaningless

Why is college tuition so high?

Because agents other than students compete to capture the present value of the excess return from a degree and who gets how much depends on relative bargaining power. Schools with a very good reputation can essentially capture a large chunk of the putative future income of their alumni themselves. If they had all the pricing power there would be nothing left for the graduate at all.

 

[Giordano]

Excess return means return over investment it’s a dispassionate term; if it is positive then incrementally higher lifetime earnings with a degree exceed the total cost to the student of getting the degree.

It is still positive in general even in the US or was last time I checked so I think your assumption is not correct: the OECD has uniform-ish data across all its member countries updated annually (I can’t link it presently). Of course not every degree is going to give its owner a positive excess return. And plenty of other factors affect that outcome so many individual data points are meaningless


Because agents other than students compete to capture the present value of the excess return from a degree and who gets how much depends on relative bargaining power. Schools with a very good reputation can essentially capture a large chunk of the putative future income of their alumni themselves. If they had all the pricing power there would be nothing left for the graduate at all.

My own, and almost all the other state colleges and universities of which I am aware, are in deep financial crises, and are running serious deficits. This goes back multiple years and parallels losses in government support. Increases in tuition at these state institutions reflect an attempt to help offset these pullbacks in state support, but the ability to increase tuitions sufficiently are naturally limited by (justifiable) angry opposition by the taxpayers.

I do not know if your analysis explains the situations at private colleges and universities but it is does not reflect the dynamic at state institutions (which typically charge tuitions 1/3 or less that of comparable private institutions).

 

[Meadmaker]

My own, and almost all the other state colleges and universities of which I am aware, are in deep financial crises, and are running serious deficits. This goes back multiple years and parallels losses in government support.

Do you happen to know if it is an absolute cutback in support, or a cutback relative to costs? In other words, is the state providing less money, or is it the same amount of money, while costs increase?

 

[Meadmaker]

One of the things that is also going on is that the collective marketplace for adult education is shifting away from "college". I.e travelling to a place with lots of rooms to spend four years listening to someone talk at the front of the room, and then taking tests to see who understood what he said.

It turns out that there are better, or at least more efficient, ways to learn employable skills.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think the traditional college model still has some really strong benefits for some people, but it isn't the best way for universal education of young adults.