StopSylvia.com: first announced

[Tricky]

The thing is though, if they really can do it, tested their abilities and put into practice, it can pretty much become a full-time job, as you studied it like you would with anything else and in this society you need money to live, whose blame is that? money makes people do weird things.

So now you excuse fraud and theft by saying "money makes people do weird things"? Your moral code is looking worse and worse by the minute.

Most people I know might do "weird things" for money, but few would tell lies to grieving people in order to get their money. How could you possibly respect someone who did that for a living? Would you excuse bank robbers because "they need money to live"?

Oh, and when psychics get tested by an impartial board, that day I will eat my hat. Sylvia Browne agreed to be tested by Randi almost ten years ago. But of course, she didn't. None of them have ever passed a double-blind test, so your point about "if they really can do it" is pretty moot.

But i should mention im against anyone who does it, due to a simple biblical phrase, unless your willing to reap the rewards from it lol.

You know, I really don't think you're getting the point of the Bible if you think that it says "anything goes, if you need money." You're forgetting the "render unto Ceasar" part too.

 

[rorylee]

Frauds in other industries often have "followers" (a better term would be "marks"). And they're often debunked, the followers fall away, and the frauds are arrested or at least fade into obscurity.
Sound familiar?

Yes. But what im saying is, an experience, experienced never changes. Which is a way a 'Psychic' works. Its not about investing, its not about making a quick bunk, its not about selling a product you'll never receive. Its about you.

Money lost (which is usually the only way frauds work outside of the paranormal 'industry') is an experience, but on a different line. You'll experience money loss, meaning the experience changed and you never gained another experience to keep following.

(sorry pretty tried, hopefully that makes sense)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

(sorry pretty tried, hopefully that makes sense)

Not a chance ...

That has got to be the most incoherent post I have ever read ...

 

[rorylee]

So now you excuse fraud and theft by saying "money makes people do weird things"? Your moral code is looking worse and worse by the minute.

Most people I know might do "weird things" for money, but few would tell lies to grieving people in order to get their money. How could you possibly respect someone who did that for a living? Would you excuse bank robbers because "they need money to live"?

Oh, and when psychics get tested by an impartial board, that day I will eat my hat. Sylvia Browne agreed to be tested by Randi almost ten years ago. But of course, she didn't. None of them have ever passed a double-blind test, so your point about "if they really can do it" is pretty moot.


You know, I really don't think you're getting the point of the Bible if you think that it says "anything goes, if you need money." You're forgetting the "render unto Ceasar" part too.

It's not about my moral code, i dont do weird things for money. Hence why i wont be taking the million dollar challenge. Its about just things people do 'anyway' for money, their morals are on the line, not mine.

Tbh i only first heard of Sylvia from another thread RSLancastr made about an email he got. I dont intend to look her up or acquire her services, but if you wanted to expose her, why not get all the evidence first before making a website, getting people she has defrauded against and form a group and take it to the right authorities, instead of making a website which still kinda promotes her(no i haven't looked around on the site, i dont know if you have got evidence or followers that have turned, just an assumption i made).

 

[Mashuna]

why not get all the evidence first before making a website, getting people she has defrauded against and form a group and take it to the right authorities, instead of making a website which still kinda promotes her(no i haven't looked around on the site, i dont know if you have got evidence or followers that have turned, just an assumption i made).

It does make it easier when you state outright that your opinions are based on complete ignorance, so thank you for that.

 

[Minarvia]

What if a psychic could heal you, but you had to believe in them to do so, or else they wouldn't use there psi powers to do it? and in the end it turns out, their psi powers really did work, you are healed. You would join the group of 'woos' along side of them, as it can only be proven to you, in a sense. But given you've gone to all the effort to bring a psychic, whether or not a fraud, down you might not get the chance and have to wait in line for treatment at your local hospital, which in any chance isn't so bad either is it? we trust the system to do the right thing, as the world continues to grow in demand.

My paternal great aunt with severe diabetes went to someone who was supposed to be able to cure her. She believed so much she spent a great deal of money traveling to him.

She wasn't cured, lost both of her legs and killed herself. Satisfied, rorylee? Woo did her a hell of a lot of good, as her descendants can attest.

Edit - I'm sorry for losing my temper but felt compelled to tell that brief story. I'm actually seething at how horrible rorylee's accusations are that I'm actually bailing this thread. He and Kurious Kathy should get together.

 

[RSLancastr]

What if a psychic could heal you, but you had to believe in them to do so, or else they wouldn't use there psi powers to do it

Rory, i don't thinka person can choose whether or not they believe something, so I could not chose to believe in the psychic, even if it would mean restoring my health. However, if the psychic submitted themself to a well-designed test which I felt proved their powers, I would believe in those powers whether the psychic decided to use them on me or not.

and in the end it turns out, their psi powers really did work, you are healed. You would join the group of 'woos' along side of them, as it can only be proven to you, in a sense. But given you've gone to all the effort to bring a psychic, whether or not a fraud, down you might not get the chance and have to wait in line for treatment at your local hospital, which in any chance isn't so bad either is it?

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you asking "what if my having created the stopsylvia site prevented some "real" psychic from healing me? Well, that would make that "real" psychic an evil person, wouldn't it? Regardless of that, I am content that my site has helped numerous people. If that somehow translated into my NOT being helped, I would still be content with what I have done. As for my receiving "treatment at a local hospital", I spent 11 months invarious hospitals, receiving lots of treatments and therapy. I am happy and grateful for that.

we trust the system to do the right thing, as the world continues to grow in demand.

 

[alfaniner]

Yes. But what im saying is, an experience, experienced never changes. Which is a way a 'Psychic' works. Its not about investing, its not about making a quick bunk, its not about selling a product you'll never receive.

Wrong. It's exactly what they do.

 

[RSLancastr]

Wrong. It's exactly what they do.

More specifically, it is about selling a product that doesn't even exist!

 

[Cactus Wren]

And as of now, StopSylvia.com is the second result of a Google search on "Sylvia Browne". Robert has beaten Wikipedia.

 

[rorylee]

Rory, i don't thinka person can choose whether or not they believe something, so I could not chose to believe in the psychic, even if it would mean restoring my health. However, if the psychic submitted themself to a well-designed test which I felt proved their powers, I would believe in those powers whether the psychic decided to use them on me or not.


I'm not sure I follow you. Are you asking "what if my having created the stopsylvia site prevented some "real" psychic from healing me? Well, that would make that "real" psychic an evil person, wouldn't it? Regardless of that, I am content that my site has helped numerous people. If that somehow translated into my NOT being helped, I would still be content with what I have done. As for my receiving "treatment at a local hospital", I spent 11 months invarious hospitals, receiving lots of treatments and therapy. I am happy and grateful for that.

If she is a fraud, karma will reap on her, so you shouldn't have to worry to much, she knows the effects of karma and you might be her's.

In a sense yes, the psychic would be evil, hell if you've gotten that far into the game, you would have stumbled across the passage that forbids any kind of magic/abilities etc used, but still intent on using it cause you can, you know whats gonna happen to you, its like anybody whose had an affair, you wont stop until you've been caught, even then you may not.

But anyway, i just gonna say, somethings will never get tested like a skeptic wants them to be, but that doesn't go to say it doesn't exist or there aren't frauds doing it, though you will be tested every day.

 

[rorylee]

Wrong. It's exactly what they do.

Wasn't meant to say bunk but buck.

 

[RSLancastr]

If she is a fraud, karma will reap on her, so you shouldn't have to worry to much, she knows the effects of karma and you might be her's.

Browne states that there is no such thing as Karmic retribution. Of course, this does not prevent some of her followers from telling me that my health issues are Karmic retribution for my having created the Stop Sylvia site.

In a sense yes, the psychic would be evil, hell if you've gotten that far into the game, you would have stumbled across the passage that forbids any kind of magic/abilities etc used, but still intent on using it cause you can, you know whats gonna happen to you, its like anybody whose had an affair, you wont stop until you've been caught, even then you may not.

A couple of things wrong here. One, you seem to be assuming that the "psychic" would believe what the bible says of their "profession." Also, people can, and sometimes do, end an affair without having been "caught."

But anyway, i just gonna say, somethings will never get tested like a skeptic wants them to be, but that doesn't go to say it doesn't exist or there aren't frauds doing it, though you will be tested every day.

Is English your first language? Just askin'...

 

[Tricky]

I've moved a number of posts that were, bickering and personal attacks to AAH. One of those was the post containing Library Lady's warning box, so treat this box like a second warning, meaning that further personalization will be treated much more strictly.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[SleuthM]

You get a lot of patients with comparable conditions and split them at random into two groups. The psychic then attempts to heal the patients in one group, but not those in the other group, without anybody letting the patients know which group they are in. At a predetermined point you examine the patients and see if the ones the psychic tried to heal are doing any better than the ones they didn't try to heal.

Such studies have been done already (involving 'spritual' healers), as others have pointed out, for instance by Edzard Ernst and his team, with predictable results. But I don't think such studies could influence rorylee's thinking?

 

[SleuthM]

AAH?

I've moved a number of posts that were, bickering and personal attacks to AAH. [...]

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

Who or what is a AAH? There are lots of aahs and oohs on Google, but not many AHHs - and they don't fit. Alcoholics Anonymous Hooligan? Thanks!

 

[AdinDraco]

Who or what is a AAH? There are lots of aahs and oohs on Google, but not many AHHs - and they don't fit. Alcoholics Anonymous Hooligan? Thanks!

Abandon All Hope : http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58

 

[kerikiwi]

Yes. But what im saying is, an experience, experienced never changes. Which is a way a 'Psychic' works. Its not about investing, its not about making a quick bunk, its not about selling a product you'll never receive. Its about you.

Money lost (which is usually the only way frauds work outside of the paranormal 'industry') is an experience, but on a different line. You'll experience money loss, meaning the experience changed and you never gained another experience to keep following.

(sorry pretty tried, hopefully that makes sense)

No, it makes no sense at all.
How about you actually try to proof read what you write before you hit 'submit'.
It works for the 7 year olds I teach. It should work for you.

 

[Uncayimmy]

No, it makes no sense at all.
How about you actually try to proof read what you write before you hit 'submit'.
It works for the 7 year olds I teach. It should work for you.

I understood what he was saying. I think you are merely confirming your own bias in that you want to see him as foolish. I wish they had a name for that.

I don't agree completely with what he's saying, but I think he's got the makings of a valid point. We've discussed it at length in other threads. In most cases of fraud, money is exchanged with the expectation of something tangible (click the link to see the various definitions) for lack of a better word. By that I think he means goods, services with results (fix my car), returns on investment and other more "definable" results.

By contrast he's arguing that a psychic reading is an experience. He's saying that if the psychic gives you a reading, then by definition there was no fraud because the experience of the reading is itself what is received in exchange. Of course, skeptics will argue the reading is given under "false pretenses" in that the psychic isn't really talking to a spirit guide or seeing the future, thus it's fraud. I agree with that premise in colloquial but not legal language.

In practice fraud convictions for psychics are few and far between. The ones I have seen tend to be centered around the scams where the psychic says they will turn "evil" money into to good money, and then abscond with it. Others are centered around an ongoing manipulation where the psychic tells the victim things with an obvious intent to "scare" the victim into spending more money or otherwise manipulate them for large sums.

With the way the fraud laws are written and the case law I've seen (limited amount), it's not surprising that people like Sylvia Browne are not even charged with fraud, much less convicted. Thing is, legislatures have it within their powers to explicitly address psychic readings without even relying on fraud laws. Some jurisdictions have done that, and that's a good thing. Personally, I'd liked to see a coordinated effort to get more laws like that on the books. Maybe the next time Randi & Company are on a cruise they can discuss how the JREF might assist in that regard.

 

[rorylee]

No, it makes no sense at all.
How about you actually try to proof read what you write before you hit 'submit'.
It works for the 7 year olds I teach. It should work for you.

Sorry your used to 7 yrs old, i cant blame you for not understanding something thats paranormal.