Squib Timing

[Panoply_Prefect]

NIST has recently suggested that pancaking floors are the cause of the squibs.

Have they? Where? Is it this passage you are referring to?

The falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it, much like the action of a piston, forcing material, such as smoke and debris, out the windows as seen in several videos.

taken from the final report, p.146.

Cheers,
SLOB

 

[R.Mackey]

How could this happen? How could the floors fall faster than free-fall?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1894560#post1894560

The floors, of course, do not fall faster than free-fall, but the pressure front sure does.

Please acknowledge when you understand this.

 

[WildCat]

TS1234, you coming here is like the 49ers coming to Soldier Field today to play the Bears. You're waaaaay out of your league.

 

[WildCat]

41-0 at the half TS1234...

 

[Skibum]

41-0 at the half TS1234...

LOL i was gonna say the same thing.
Is SF that bad or is chicago that good, or is it a combo? UNREAL

 

[steve s]

It has been suggested by OCTs that floor assemblies are falling ahead of the main collapse.

No, it hasn't. The collapsing portion itself is enough to build up the air pressure. No floors need to preceed the main collapse.

The compressed air pushes equally around the walls at that floor, and the center window, being the weakest point, breaks and allows the jet of smoke and debris to exit as we see.

No one said it had to be the center window. IIRC, each tower had about 20,000 windows. What are the odds that all 20,000 windows would have exactly the same strength. A few of them were bound to be slightly weaker than the others for various reasons. Either there were manufacturing defects, or it wasn't installed quite as well, or it suffered some damage over the 30 years that the towers stood. Those windows that were the weakest are the ones that blew out.

Note that free-falling debris has not reached the squib. Since the squib is already well outside the building, the culprit floor must have fallen some time earlier, meaning the free-falling debris would have been even higher up when the culprit floor began falling.

Your constant use of the word "squib" just exposes your ignorance of CDs. The term used in the industry is "charge."

How could the floors fall faster than free-fall?

For the millionth time, they didnt'.

SLOB, excellent example re the sinking ship.

Steve S.

 

[rwguinn]

a Squib is a cartrige loaded with insufficient powder to get the bullet all the way out of the barrel. It therefore stops somewhere between breech and muzzle.
A squib, therefore, is not an energetic explosion--it is a very weak one.
(although gun powder doesn't actually explode--it burns very, very, fast.)

 

[beachnut]

How could this happen? How could the floors fall faster than free-fall?

squibs, there were no stinking squibs

get your video, freeze the frames, see if the debris in the air is accelerating,

in an explosion the air would be decelerating after a short distance

In a collapse the air accelerates, as on 9/11, the debris is being pushed my more and more air, and there were no overall impulses observed in the flow out the window, or did you see explosives planted in the WTC?

Did anyone see any Islamic terrorist climbing the stairs of the WTC????

why do you call it squibs, you must be a CT guy. You would call an explosive RDX, dynamite, etc, not a squib.

Nothing falls faster than freefall (except judy woods beam weapon)

try again

fall is the key

even a CD building would only fall as fast as gravity allows overall!

 

[rudar]

Nothing can fall faster than freefall.

Well, to be technical, sure it can, if it's got a nice jet engine powering it straight down Or if it's a meteorite that's moving way fast on entry and slows down to terminal velocity, then until it reaches that speed, it would be falling faster than free-fall, no?

Still, as far as the WTC goes, nothing's falling faster than free-fall, but the pressure wave in air trapped in the tower *can* move far faster than any individual particle.

 

[Horatius]

Or if it's a meteorite that's moving way fast on entry and slows down to terminal velocity, then until it reaches that speed, it would be falling faster than free-fall, no?

Actually, a meteorite would be free falling. It just started from a heck of a long way up.

 

[Gravy]

Here's a "squib" on the north tower.

According to my rough measurements from the enlarged video (ignoring the slight perspective distortion, and using the building’s 208-foot width as a guide), “squib” reaches a length of 29.6 meters in 1.86 seconds, for an average velocity of 15.9 meters per second (35.6 mph). The velocity of RDX, the explosive commonly used to cut steel columns? 8,750 meters per second (19,574 mph). Doubters need only to watch the video: http://tinyurl.com/mzcdq

Run it back and forth. The material is clearly flowing out of the window(s), not exploding. The "squibs" become more energetic as the collapse progresses, again, an effect you wouldn't see with explosives.

The (ahem!) likely reason for the "localized" plume: broken windows. “Aha!” The wily CT says, “On lower floors, several plumes can be seen emanating from a single floor!” Yes, as they should. These are mechanical equipment floors, which have vents to the outside. These floors are obvious from the dark horizontal bands seen on the towers’ facades.

Most mechanical floors require external vents or louvers for ventilation and heat rejection along most or all of their perimeter, precluding the use of glass windows. The resulting visible "dark bands" can disrupt the overall facade design especially if it is fully glass-clad. Examples: World Trade Center Twin Towers: Floors 7-8, 41-42, 75-76, and 108-109 (total 8/110, 7%). http://tinyurl.com/q69vj

The NIST weighs in on “squibs”

Question: Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building. http://tinyurl.com/create.php

 

[fuelair]

Consider this picture:

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/janedoe444/ARG/Image231.jpg

Observe that the expulsions of smoke and debris are occurring well below the main collapse front. It has been suggested by OCTs that floor assemblies are falling ahead of the main collapse. These falling floors compress the air "like a piston" or "like the plunger in a syringe". The compressed air pushes equally around the walls at that floor, and the center window, being the weakest point, breaks and allows the jet of smoke and debris to exit as we see.

Is this possible?

Note that free-falling debris has not reached the squib. Since the squib is already well outside the building, the culprit floor must have fallen some time earlier, meaning the free-falling debris would have been even higher up when the culprit floor began falling.

How could this happen? How could the floors fall faster than free-fall?

Possibly the excess mass of CTers crap weighing down on them.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

All these analogies to potato guns, bicycle pumps, etc. are evocative, but they just don't match reality in this case. First of all, you have huge quantities of material being ejected out of the building on all four sides at the "collapse" front. Whatever "piston" you imagine pressing down on the air must be sealed off from this, otherwise the air would just go where all that other air is going.

This means that whole floors have to fall at once, below the visible "collapse" front, because if only part of a floor fell, the compressed air below the falling floor would rush up and around to fill in the low pressure above the falling floor. Remember, we're only dealing with one atmosphere of pressure here (absent explosives that is), thus any local overpressure should be matched by a corresponding underpressure somewhere else.

So you imagine whole floors dropping ahead of the collapse front, and compressing the air below it, forcing it into elevator shafts and air conditioning vents. This increases pressure in the elevator shafts and air conditioner vents, which distributes that air throughout the system.

Are you guys suggesting that the entire tower below the collapse front had its air pressure raised, that the whole thing was inflated like a tire, and that those two windows on the whatever floor popped because they were the weakest point in an airtight vessel? Is this what you guys are trying to get me to believe?

Just out of curiousity, what is the velocity of an RDX shaped charge at 100 feet?

 

[stateofgrace]

All these analogies to potato guns, bicycle pumps, etc. are evocative, but they just don't match reality in this case. First of all, you have huge quantities of material being ejected out of the building on all four sides at the "collapse" front. Whatever "piston" you imagine pressing down on the air must be sealed off from this, otherwise the air would just go where all that other air is going.

This means that whole floors have to fall at once, below the visible "collapse" front, because if only part of a floor fell, the compressed air below the falling floor would rush up and around to fill in the low pressure above the falling floor. Remember, we're only dealing with one atmosphere of pressure here (absent explosives that is), thus any local overpressure should be matched by a corresponding underpressure somewhere else.

So you imagine whole floors dropping ahead of the collapse front, and compressing the air below it, forcing it into elevator shafts and air conditioning vents. This increases pressure in the elevator shafts and air conditioner vents, which distributes that air throughout the system.

Are you guys suggesting that the entire tower below the collapse front had its air pressure raised, that the whole thing was inflated like a tire, and that those two windows on the whatever floor popped because they were the weakest point in an airtight vessel? Is this what you guys are trying to get me to believe?

Just out of curiousity, what is the velocity of an RDX shaped charge at 100 feet?

Please don't apply for a job offshore.

 

[rwguinn]

nonsense!
And you know it.
Go stand near a waterfall. feel that breeze? Totally open system.
Stand next to the freeway while trucks go roaring by at 75 mph. Amazing, ain't it.
Ever feel your car rock when you meet a truck on a 2 lane? I've even been nearly pushed off the road when one passed me.
Wake up and smell the bull stuff.
You are lying through your teeth with every post. I believe that is your natural state. You couldn't tell the truth if you had to.

 

[R.Mackey]

All these analogies to potato guns, bicycle pumps, etc. are evocative, but they just don't match reality in this case. First of all, you have huge quantities of material being ejected out of the building on all four sides at the "collapse" front. Whatever "piston" you imagine pressing down on the air must be sealed off from this, otherwise the air would just go where all that other air is going.

We're talking about the collapse of a surface several acres in size. There's quite a lot of air flowing around, indeed, in all directions. Plenty to spare.

This means that whole floors have to fall at once, below the visible "collapse" front, because if only part of a floor fell, the compressed air below the falling floor would rush up and around to fill in the low pressure above the falling floor. Remember, we're only dealing with one atmosphere of pressure here (absent explosives that is), thus any local overpressure should be matched by a corresponding underpressure somewhere else.

No. The collapse is happening in ambient. There is basically the entire world's worth of atmosphere filling any "vacuum" left behind.

You are not talking about only one atmosphere of pressure. As the floors above fall faster and faster, the local pressure can get to be pretty high as it's squeezed out of windows. Say one or two PSI.

One or two PSI, by the way, is enough to kill people. Remember my video of the 500 ton TNT test? The nearby destroyers, getting hammered around and getting windows and masts smashed off, only experienced a six PSI overpressure.

So you imagine whole floors dropping ahead of the collapse front, and compressing the air below it, forcing it into elevator shafts and air conditioning vents. This increases pressure in the elevator shafts and air conditioner vents, which distributes that air throughout the system.

Are you guys suggesting that the entire tower below the collapse front had its air pressure raised, that the whole thing was inflated like a tire, and that those two windows on the whatever floor popped because they were the weakest point in an airtight vessel? Is this what you guys are trying to get me to believe?

Pretty much.

You also should consider that there would be other loose debris flying around, accelerated by the pressure wave or snapping free, and that debris might also preferentially break some windows but not others.

Just out of curiousity, what is the velocity of an RDX shaped charge at 100 feet?

Lots of variables.

If the RDX charge accelerates debris, as a cutting charge would be sure to do, some debris (shrapnel) would surely be supersonic at 30 meters and more.

But the point is that the jet in your "squibs" not only is slow, but it accelerates after it's first seen. Explosives don't do that, they produce an impulse and then the gas evolution rapidly decays. They don't produce jets except in very rare and special circumstances.

 

[steve s]

Are you guys suggesting that the entire tower below the collapse front had its air pressure raised, that the whole thing was inflated like a tire, and that those two windows on the whatever floor popped because they were the weakest point in an airtight vessel? Is this what you guys are trying to get me to believe?

Yes, it's called Physics. You should try learning some. It will help prevent you from making really stupid posts like this one.

Steve S.

 

[Gravy]

Are you guys suggesting that the entire tower below the collapse front had its air pressure raised, that the whole thing was inflated like a tire, and that those two windows on the whatever floor popped because they were the weakest point in an airtight vessel? Is this what you guys are trying to get me to believe?

TS, I've asked you this before but you avoided the question: what would you expect to see if a window or windows was already broken? Wouldn't the smoke and debris, under pressure, follow the path of least resistance, as it did on the mechanical floors? Is that a reasonable scenario?

 

[fuelair]

nonsense!
And you know it.
Go stand near a waterfall. feel that breeze? Totally open system.
Stand next to the freeway while trucks go roaring by at 75 mph. Amazing, ain't it.
Ever feel your car rock when you meet a truck on a 2 lane? I've even been nearly pushed off the road when one passed me.
Wake up and smell the bull stuff.
You are lying through your teeth with every post. I believe that is your natural state. You couldn't tell the truth if you had to.

Mark Twain says never assume malice when simple stupidity will explain something.

 

[rwguinn]

Mark Twain says never assume malice when simple stupidity will explain something.

Simple stupidity I can deal with.
These (see new color scheme and think Buggs Bunny)'s go far beyond that...