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[Split]When are you white?

Perhaps not. But when we talk about who gets a college grant based on skin colour, somebody somewhere has to draw that single thin bright line.

Applicants usually self-identify. Usually, there are also supporting letters that need be written, which in turn means that the referee needs to agree with your self-identification. There is also usually an administrator from the granting agency who also needs to agree.

And, no, no single thin bright line need be drawn. The applicant has to decide to apply or not -- but can decide to apply for a grant for which they aren't sure they qualify, just on the off-chance. (Heck, they can outright lie if they feel like it.) Similarly for the referees. The administrator, on the other hand, has a pile of money to give out -- if he feels that candidate X is not a member of the target group, or for that matter, that the agencies interests would be better served by giving the money to candidate Y, who is a more prototypical member of that group, he can award the money more or less as he sees fit. But he needn't draw a bright line between the members of the group and the non-members, merely between the funded and the unfunded.
 
Applicants usually self-identify. Usually, there are also supporting letters that need be written, which in turn means that the referee needs to agree with your self-identification.

That's ludicrous. A black guy doesn't become white, just because he says he is. If that was the case, why bother with dividing people into racial groups in the first place?

There is also usually an administrator from the granting agency who also needs to agree.

And, no, no single thin bright line need be drawn. The applicant has to decide to apply or not -- but can decide to apply for a grant for which they aren't sure they qualify, just on the off-chance. (Heck, they can outright lie if they feel like it.) Similarly for the referees. The administrator, on the other hand, has a pile of money to give out -- if he feels that candidate X is not a member of the target group, or for that matter, that the agencies interests would be better served by giving the money to candidate Y, who is a more prototypical member of that group, he can award the money more or less as he sees fit. But he needn't draw a bright line between the members of the group and the non-members, merely between the funded and the unfunded.

If the administrator is the one making the final decision, he has to draw a single thin bright line. Otherwise, he opens up for accusations of favoritism and racism. If he doesn't have a thin bright line, he cannot possibly justify giving to one and not another.

If people want to divide by race, they have to be able to draw a thin, bright line. I want to know how it is drawn.
 
The UK race relations bunch tried to define Chinese people as black during their golden days in the 1990's.

Their definition was pretty much "not white", where white was the color of the oppressive majority.
 
The UK race relations bunch tried to define Chinese people as black during their golden days in the 1990's.

Their definition was pretty much "not white", where white was the color of the oppressive majority.

How did they determine who was "not white"?
 
That's what happens. Specific members with short attention spans tend to derail threads when the number of pages gets above 10.


I'd report it but I don't really care. I don't think there's anything else anyone opposing my view can say that hasn't already been said. And those who support my view are likely too afraid to speak up due to their getting flamed as I did.
So, who agreed with you? Are you spouting platitudes, or just plain error, again?

DR
 
That's ludicrous. A black guy doesn't become white, just because he says he is.

Ward Churchhill managed to become "Native American" just by saying that he was.

I'm afraid that the world doesn't operate as you wish it does.

If the administrator is the one making the final decision, he has to draw a single thin bright line.

Nope.

Otherwise, he opens up for accusations of favoritism and racism.


Um,.... so what? There's no legal expectation of that any particular person will get any particular grant. He can simply justify his decision to award the grant by saying "person X was better qualified," without any reference to racial characteristics.


If people want to divide by race, they have to be able to draw a thin, bright line. I want to know how it is drawn.

They divide by race by being smart enough to know that it's not necessary to draw a thin, bright, line.
 
How did they determine who was "not white"?

Membership or direct blood relation to a designated minority population. A Spaniard or Greek with skin darker than that of someone of mixed race would not qualify, as they are "white".
 
Ward Churchhill managed to become "Native American" just by saying that he was.

But is he a Native American?

I'm afraid that the world doesn't operate as you wish it does.

It's not a question of how I want the world to operate as I wish, but how it really operates.

Um,.... so what? There's no legal expectation of that any particular person will get any particular grant. He can simply justify his decision to award the grant by saying "person X was better qualified," without any reference to racial characteristics.

Also if he is basing his decision on what race the person is? Why have decisions based on racial divisions at all, then?

They divide by race by being smart enough to know that it's not necessary to draw a thin, bright, line.

Rubbish. Then, they aren't dividing by race.

Can someone else give me a better explanation?
 
"Membership"? How does that work?

How did they determine how dark skin should be?
 
But is he a Native American?

He says he is. That was sufficient for the University of Colorado to hire him in a slot reserved for Native Americans.

If you want to argue to the contrary -- well, where are you drawing your bright line?



It's not a question of how I want the world to operate as I wish, but how it really operates.

Then don't reject when I describe to you how it really operates.


Applicants for minority-specific funding usually self-identify.

Since the pool for such funding is limited, merely applying for such funding is no guarantee of getting it -- far from it. Administrators of the relevant funds have fairly broad latitude in deciding who gets in the funding according to the interests and purposes of the funds; which can include a decision that the interests are better served by giving the money to someone else in the target group.
 
He says he is. That was sufficient for the University of Colorado to hire him in a slot reserved for Native Americans.

Excellent! That means the end of racism in the US! There are no more blacks in the US!

....gee...why doesn't that sound particularly convincing? :rolleyes:

If you want to argue to the contrary -- well, where are you drawing your bright line?

I am not drawing a line at all.

Then don't reject when I describe to you how it really operates.

I am not rejecting it at all. People can't just stop being blacks. It's a ridiculous claim.

Applicants for minority-specific funding usually self-identify.

Since the pool for such funding is limited, merely applying for such funding is no guarantee of getting it -- far from it. Administrators of the relevant funds have fairly broad latitude in deciding who gets in the funding according to the interests and purposes of the funds; which can include a decision that the interests are better served by giving the money to someone else in the target group.

Again, then they aren't dividing by race.
 
When you absorb some colors of the visible spectrum rather than reflecting them.
Or where you're as doppler as I am.

(sorry, didn't think of that one until later.)

Race-wise.

Can you answer that?
I assume you mean "ethnic-wise" because my race is homo sapian.

And I can no more tell when someone is not white then I can tell when someone is not cold. It's a matter of degrees, not always supported by outward indicators, and, honestly, we're all a little hot and cold.
 
Excellent! That means the end of racism in the US! There are no more blacks in the US!

....gee...why doesn't that sound particularly convincing? :rolleyes:

Because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. As you well know.

If the practice of self-identification didn't work on a broad scale, the foundations wouldn't use it. (Self-identification, for example, demonstrably doesn't work for gender in the Olympic games, which is why female athletes were required to undergo a chromosome test to "prove" that they're female. I believe that the Sydney Olympics abolished this practice because the chromosome test wasn't sufficiently reliable.)
 
Because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. As you well know.

If the practice of self-identification didn't work on a broad scale, the foundations wouldn't use it. (Self-identification, for example, demonstrably doesn't work for gender in the Olympic games, which is why female athletes were required to undergo a chromosome test to "prove" that they're female. I believe that the Sydney Olympics abolished this practice because the chromosome test wasn't sufficiently reliable.)

Your line of reasoning suffers from one fundamental flaw: If people can simply self-identify, why would anyone want to self-identify as a race that they know would be discriminated against? Why would a black man self-identify as black, if he knew it would get him in trouble more than it would benefit him?

Of course, this works the other way around: White people could simply self-identify as a minority group (as needed) and get better deals than they would have as a majority. Thereby forcing those who should get the funds out.
 
Your line of reasoning suffers from one fundamental flaw: If people can simply self-identify, why would anyone want to self-identify as a race that they know would be discriminated against? Why would a black man self-identify as black, if he knew it would get him in trouble more than it would benefit him?
Black people don't usually suffer discrimination due to self-identifying as such, but because of others' perceptions. But then I have an interesting case from literature, which I will expound on in another post.
Of course, this works the other way around: White people could simply self-identify as a minority group (as needed) and get better deals than they would have as a majority. Thereby forcing those who should get the funds out.
They could, and do. If the problem were big enough that whites were eating up all the set-asides for blacks by this method, then the system would probably adjust to reduce the problem.
 
Black people don't usually suffer discrimination due to self-identifying as such, but because of others' perceptions. But then I have an interesting case from literature, which I will expound on in another post.

If you have cases from real life, that would be preferable. In the absence, we can compare stories from fairy-tales, if you like.

They could, and do. If the problem were big enough that whites were eating up all the set-asides for blacks by this method, then the system would probably adjust to reduce the problem.

But how would anyone find out? To find out, they would have to measure the self-identification up against some authoritative scale. Which doesn't exist....
 
Your line of reasoning suffers from one fundamental flaw: If people can simply self-identify, why would anyone want to self-identify as a race that they know would be discriminated against?

Well, one reason is because there's strong social pressure within the group to conform to the in-group social expectations; John McWhorter, for example, has spent quite some time documenting anti-intellectualism among American blacks, and -- interestingly -- black children who act intellectual are criticized specifically for "acting white." To attempt to self-identify as "white" will expose you to as much or more discrimination among blacks than self-identifying as "black" among whites. And if most of your social contacts are black, that's a much bigger disincentive.....

So your question itself is based on a false premise :

iWhy would a black man self-identify as black, if he knew it would get him in trouble more than it would benefit him?

For many, self-identification as "black" is actually beneficial if they're in a strongly "black" community, to the point that they will attempt to become more prototypically black -- essentially, trying to make themselves more black instead of make themselves more white. Again, this can produce strongly counterintuitive results, such as Lichelle Laws' rather infamous "Trying to get to Watts, but I'm stuck in Baldwin Hills" lyrics.

Beyond that, of course, self-identification only works as long as other people tend to agree with the results of the self-identification. As you point out, correctly, a white could self-identify as a black to try to get money out of a college-tuition-for-blacks fund. As a single isolated incident, this isn't necessarily a problem; in order to get the money, the white not only has to self-identify, but the fund officer has to agree, otherwise, he doesn't get the money. The funds officer, of course, has his own prototype (again, there's no "bright line" involved). The system is robust enough to stand up to a few mistakes. If the funds officer's decisions vary too radically from society's as a whole, he will either be removed from his job as incompetent, or else donations to the fund will drop to the point that the fund is no longer viable.

So the system is robust to a few errors, but widespread attempting to work the system as you describe would produce too many errors, and people would stop relying on self-identification. For example, some schools/foundations used to require applicants to submit photographs with the application. This substitutes the prototype-based judgement of the foundation's officer with the self-identification of the applicant.

You still haven't argued why you need a single bright line to define people's race when every other categorization decision that people make can demonstrably be handled well by prototype-based decision mechanisms. If your point is simply that racial classification is not objective -- so what? If you argue that people can disagree about a given person's race -- again, so what? The fact that two people can disagree about a borderline case in a prototype-based classification system does not invalidate either the system or the classifications.

Or if you feel it does, then take it up with Dr. Rosch.
 

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