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[Split]When are you white?

And every poster in this thread has told you in one way or another that there is no single answer to that question. You can't possibly be that dense. What are you up to?

Oh, there does seem to be one answer:

Traits like skin pigment and color and curliness of hair have been pointed out as the decisive parameters in defining who is "black" and who is not. Strangely enough, it is not possible to get clear definitions just how much pigment, what color and how curly the hair has to be.

In the absence of clear demarcations, it is therefore totally acceptable to simply make up any rule and either accept or reject people, based on these rules. Without telling anyone how you made those rules. And the rules can be adjusted to whatever you feel like, whenever you feel like it, depending on each person.

Or did I miss something?
 
Traits like skin pigment and color and curliness of hair have been pointed out as the decisive parameters in defining who is "black" and who is not.

Or did I miss something?

Yes. The fact that "traits like skin pigment and color and curliness of hair have been pointed out" specifically as being NON-decisive parameters.

Basically, you've misrepresented and misunderstood everything that's been posted.
 
Oh, there does seem to be one answer:

Traits like skin pigment and color and curliness of hair have been pointed out as the decisive parameters in defining who is "black" and who is not. Strangely enough, it is not possible to get clear definitions just how much pigment, what color and how curly the hair has to be.

In the absence of clear demarcations, it is therefore totally acceptable to simply make up any rule and either accept or reject people, based on these rules. Without telling anyone how you made those rules. And the rules can be adjusted to whatever you feel like, whenever you feel like it, depending on each person.

Or did I miss something?
I see. You might just have inched a little closer to what you really care about. Is it that you don't think that there should be racially based advantages or set-asides or whatever? Why after 3 pages of cantankerous caterwauling have you still not come to the point?
 
Yes. The fact that "traits like skin pigment and color and curliness of hair have been pointed out" specifically as being NON-decisive parameters.

Basically, you've misrepresented and misunderstood everything that's been posted.

Really? How else do you explain this post of yours?

So a "prototypical black" would be a person (category element) centrally located in the abstract conceptual space of features that correlate with (racial) blackness. A little bit of thought should give you a partial list of "black" features : you can start with skin pigmentation, hair colour and apparent curliness, shape of facial features, accent, dress style, and so forth.

And, while you are at it, here are the questions again:

  • How do we recognize a "black" person's skin pigmentation?
  • How is a "black" person's hair defined?
  • How is a "black" person's hair "curliness" defined?
  • How is a "black" person's shape of facial features defined?
  • How is a "black" person's accent defined?
  • How is a "black" person's dress style defined?
  • Do other groups than blacks act the same way? Whites trying to be as white as possible?
  • What is the difference between white behavior and black behavior?
  • How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?
  • Out of how many blacks in all?
  • What is this measuring tool that a funds officer/administrator has to measure up against?
Stop stalling. Answer the questions.

I see. You might just have inched a little closer to what you really care about. Is it that you don't think that there should be racially based advantages or set-asides or whatever? Why after 3 pages of cantankerous caterwauling have you still not come to the point?

Did I miss something, yes or no?
 
Really? How else do you explain this post of yours?

By reading it correctly, mate.


And, while you are at it, here are the questions again:

  • How do we recognize a "black" person's skin pigmentation?
  • How is a "black" person's hair defined?
  • How is a "black" person's hair "curliness" defined?
  • How is a "black" person's shape of facial features defined?
  • How is a "black" person's accent defined?
  • How is a "black" person's dress style defined?
  • Do other groups than blacks act the same way? Whites trying to be as white as possible?
  • What is the difference between white behavior and black behavior?
  • How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?
  • Out of how many blacks in all?
  • What is this measuring tool that a funds officer/administrator has to measure up against?
Stop stalling. Answer the questions.

As hgc pointed out, you wouldn't understand the answers.




Did I miss something, yes or no?

Yes.
 
I don't mean to sound like a jackass and I appreciate your detailed response.

OK. Thank you for acknowledging it.

But the fact of the matter is I have addressed it all already in this thread.

I thought perhaps you had addressed bits and pieces, but it was simply my impression that you didn't quite comprehend how much material students at professional schools must cover, and how much time and discipline is required to master it. Perhaps you did and you do.

I also suspect you don't fully appreciate the rigors involved in licensing and remaining credentialed throughout a professional's career. I hope I'm wrong.

AS
 
By reading it correctly, mate.

Where did I read it wrongly? Explain, please.

As hgc pointed out, you wouldn't understand the answers.

What kind of snooty response is that? Just answer the questions:

  • How do we recognize a "black" person's skin pigmentation?
  • How is a "black" person's hair defined?
  • How is a "black" person's hair "curliness" defined?
  • How is a "black" person's shape of facial features defined?
  • How is a "black" person's accent defined?
  • How is a "black" person's dress style defined?
  • Do other groups than blacks act the same way? Whites trying to be as white as possible?
  • What is the difference between white behavior and black behavior?
  • How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?
  • Out of how many blacks in all?
  • What is this measuring tool that a funds officer/administrator has to measure up against?


And what did I miss? Explain, please.
 
In the absence of clear demarcations, it is therefore totally acceptable to simply make up any rule and either accept or reject people, based on these rules. Without telling anyone how you made those rules. And the rules can be adjusted to whatever you feel like, whenever you feel like it, depending on each person.

Part of the problem here is that you're confusing scientific findings with your preferred scheme of ethics. Whether or not you find the state of the world "acceptable" does not in any way impact how the world actually is -- you may find it unacceptable that women cannot vote in some countries, but to deny that such countries exist is futile. You can even, if you like, work for political change in those countries in order to change things around.

You may also find it unacceptable that women are typically smaller and less strong than men. Unfortunately, that's another scientific finding that will not go away simply because you wish it. And in this case, I doubt there's even much that you can do to enforce change -- the differences exist because that's how evolution shaped human biology.

Evolution has also shaped human psychology and cognition. And one way that is has shaped people's minds is that people do in fact make classification decisions based on sets of essentially arbitrary and stereotypical criteria (although, again, you don't seem to understand that these criteria are the exact opposite of rules) that may vary on an individual basis and that may not be articulatable. That's another scientific finding. Whether or not it's morally acceptable to act in a discriminatory manner is an entirely different question.

We have, for example, strong biological evidence that humans have evolved to be moderately polygamous (and specifically polygynous). For most societies in history, polygamy was accepted. Today, most western societies consider polygamy to be unacceptable and demand that humans act otherwise, despite the evolutionary background. Similarly, many societies demand (with somewhat less success) that people act similarly to people of different "classifications," overriding the underlying biology. One of the nice things about humans is that they have that capacity to override their biology (to some extent).

But that doesn't mean that the biology isn't there.
 
What kind of snooty response is that?

A correct one. You've demonstrably misunderstood not only my explanations, but also hgc's and slingblade's. You persist in your misunderstanding (as in your use of the term "rule" or the use of the term "decisive parameters."

Just answer the questions:

Already done. That you've not recognized the answers you've already been given, while both hgc and slingblade have, is more proof that you don't understand.
 
One of the nice things about humans is that they have that capacity to override their biology (to some extent).

But that doesn't mean that the biology isn't there.

What, exactly, are you talking about here?

A correct one. You've demonstrably misunderstood not only my explanations, but also hgc's and slingblade's. You persist in your misunderstanding (as in your use of the term "rule" or the use of the term "decisive parameters."

Then explain what it is I am misunderstanding.

Already done. That you've not recognized the answers you've already been given, while both hgc and slingblade have, is more proof that you don't understand.

That is a bald-faced lie. Answer the questions:

  • How do we recognize a "black" person's skin pigmentation?
  • How is a "black" person's hair defined?
  • How is a "black" person's hair "curliness" defined?
  • How is a "black" person's shape of facial features defined?
  • How is a "black" person's accent defined?
  • How is a "black" person's dress style defined?
  • Do other groups than blacks act the same way? Whites trying to be as white as possible?
  • What is the difference between white behavior and black behavior?
  • How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?
  • Out of how many blacks in all?
  • What is this measuring tool that a funds officer/administrator has to measure up against?
  • How did I not read your post (#88) correctly?
  • What did I miss in all this?

As you see, the list is growing.
 
What, exactly, are you talking about here?

The theoretical background so that you can understand the answers you have already been given to your questions.



Then explain what it is I am misunderstanding.

The answers to the questions you are asking.

The questions themselves that you are asking.




That is a bald-faced lie.

Withdraw that statement, or face reportage for libel.
 
The theoretical background so that you can understand the answers you have already been given to your questions.

This is no clearer. What is this "biology" you are talking about that is relevant in this discussion? Be specific, please.

The answers to the questions you are asking.

The questions themselves that you are asking.

Again, no clearer at all. Please explain what it is I am misunderstanding.

Withdraw that statement, or face reportage for libel.

I stand by my statement.

  • How do we recognize a "black" person's skin pigmentation?
  • How is a "black" person's hair defined?
  • How is a "black" person's hair "curliness" defined?
  • How is a "black" person's shape of facial features defined?
  • How is a "black" person's accent defined?
  • How is a "black" person's dress style defined?
  • Do other groups than blacks act the same way? Whites trying to be as white as possible?
  • What is the difference between white behavior and black behavior?
  • How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?
  • Out of how many blacks in all?
  • What is this measuring tool that a funds officer/administrator has to measure up against?
  • How did I not read your post (#88) correctly?
  • What did I miss in all this?
 
We might have a ShaneK in Claus clothing.

Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!!!

Could you point out just where drkitten answered this question:

How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?

?

Just a post number.
 
Could you point out just where drkitten answered this question:
That the answers to those questions are complex, detailed and subtle, and are contained in many long posts rather than quick hit answers, seems to be very irksome to you. Why you would think to escalate the rhetoric, because of that, to calling drkitten a liar is beyond me.

How many blacks self-identify as blacks because they find it beneficial if they are in a strongly black community?
For starters, I have no idea how many. Will you reveal the answer, now that you know I can't?

More importantly, will you explain what the point of the question is? There is a fatal flaw in your debating technique: You attempt to lead people to your conclusion by aggressive use of unanswerable questions. I suggest you lay out your thesis a little sooner, and commence to explain and defend it.

ETA: When I say "unanswerable," I mean to your satisfaction.
 
Last edited:
That the answers to those questions are complex, detailed and subtle, and are contained in many long posts rather than quick hit answers, seems to be very irksome to you. Why you would think to escalate the rhetoric, because of that, to calling drkitten a liar is beyond me.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing complex, detailed or subtle about the answer. It is a number, not a lengthy paper on philosophy.

Where did he answer the question? Just a post number.

For starters, I have no idea how many. Will you reveal the answer, now that you know I can't?

I didn't ask you. And I don't know the answer. That's why I asked.

More importantly, will you explain what the point of the question is? There is a fatal flaw in your debating technique: You attempt to lead people to your conclusion by aggressive use of unaswerable questions. I suggest you lay out your thesis a little sooner, and commence to explain and defend it.

I've made my "thesis" clear from the start. I want to know when you are "white" and when you are "black".
 
I'm sorry, but there is nothing complex, detailed or subtle about the answer. It is a number, not a lengthy paper on philosophy.

Where did he answer the question? Just a post number.

I didn't ask you. And I don't know the answer. That's why I asked.
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? I ask because I don't know the answer.

I've made my "thesis" clear from the start. I want to know when you are "white" and when you are "black".
I see you still refuse to make your point, to reveal what you really want to argue about.
 

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