Something puzzling me regarding testing of evolution

I didn't come here to argue tit for tat with people, i simply asked a question about DNA and cloning and admitted i am a layman.

What i asked was about trying to clone ancient organisms from DNA. Since it has been pointed out to me that DNA deteriorates with time, my query has been answered.

It is just that it seems to me that the basis of cloning an organism is predicated on DNA. If there is intact ancient DNA then cloning of those organisms should possible, and with the mappings of chemical organisations that produce organisms, i would have thought it possible to either clone or make clones of these ancient organisms anyway.

So to all the people that felt like challenging my statements i just want to say thanks and don't forget your ego hat next time.
In all seriousness, Sunstar ..... there maybe a way "around" the problem of finding intact DNA in producing a protodinosaur of sorts. I'm not even a layman, but saw an interesting special on this concept awhile back by Hans Larsson and Jack Horner on manipulating chicken embryo proteins to trigger the growth of tails, scales, teeth, forelimbs, etc .... all of which are supposedly encoded in dormant DNA, etc and so forth. Don't ask me much beyond that, and a quick google didn't turn up the show I'm thinking of either. But it was interesting and they showed the results of their efforts by showing the altered chickens, etc.
 
Yes, it did strike me as rather weird why someone would bring up fish. Nevertheless, it wasn't me. And i should think that even if it was me, that the whale devolved, so to speak, then there is no real misunderstanding here except by nit picking trawlers.

Whales didn't devolve. Their ancestors just got better at living in the water again. Not too different from if, say, beavers someday developed the ability to stay underwater for really, really long periods of time in response to a predator that couldn't (or whatever selective pressure).
 
I didn't come here to argue tit for tat with people, i simply asked a question about DNA and cloning and admitted i am a layman.

What i asked was about trying to clone ancient organisms from DNA. Since it has been pointed out to me that DNA deteriorates with time, my query has been answered.

It is just that it seems to me that the basis of cloning an organism is predicated on DNA. If there is intact ancient DNA then cloning of those organisms should possible, and with the mappings of chemical organisations that produce organisms, i would have thought it possible to either clone or make clones of these ancient organisms anyway.

So to all the people that felt like challenging my statements i just want to say thanks and don't forget your ego hat next time.

http://blogs.discovery.com/animal_news/2009/05/cloning-the-mammoth.html
 
Whether or not a mammal species could evolve into an egg-laying fish species is an interesting question, though. I think it probably could? I really don't know.
 
Correction, it was not that whales evolved from mammals, it was that they started out as fish and became semi mammals and then reverted back to fish.

Semi-mammals? What is a semi-mammal?

Whales are mammals. Whales evolved from a fully land-living mammal that looked quite a bit like a deer.
 
Sunstar, the OP question was answered within the first few posts on page 1. Is there anything else you don't understand about evolution or DNA, which you would like to have clarified?
 
Hurm... *Mammals ARE fish* hurm, hurm...




I am a layman in all respects and i am confused a little by certain evolutionary theories. We know that once there were mammals that devolved back into fish and that fossil records are based on skeletons and not necessarily biological processes.

As mentioned, the term 'devolve' is not very good. Evolution is a continuous phenomenon, the population acquire new genes and selective pressure make the individual carrying the most beneficial among these genes more prevalent.
Over time, these genes become the norm...
Depending of the situation, the 'winning solution' can be a more complex organism or, on the contrary, a simpler and/or more frugal ones... A population may even loose traits that its ancestors only recently acquired, but there is no 'devolution', it is the same evolutionary mechanisms, just selecting in two, somewhat opposed, direction.

To take your example, cetaceans (which, by the way, evolved from a full fledged mammal rather than a 'proto-mammal') did go back to the oceans and loose characteristics that their distant ancestors acquired when the conquered the land. Similarly, they were selected toward something that may appear superficially similar to their ancestral fish.
And yet, when you look at both, the differences are still unmistakable. The cetacean's tail, for example, move up and down rather than from left to right as the fish' do, a reminded of the mammalian's hip structure.



So i wanted to know what a clone was. Are clones built from DNA? And is it not true that DNA can be extracted from bones? Inside the cell is the DNA, and a piece of bone contains cellular properties, hence it must contain the DNA too? Is that right?

Pretty much.



Then shouldn't it be possible to clone any ancient species with skeletal tissue in a laboratory? I don't see why not.

Indeed, and it has been attempted. But cloning is still quite a difficult science and the process is still in need of improvement. I strongly believes that it's coming, though.



You could find the different species in the bones, the different bacteria, and date them, and then find the original DNA and repduce the bacteria or organism.

Ok... so...
Bacteria? Bacteria are microbes, germs... There are not part of the bones. They should not be present in a healthy bone.

Assuming you mean, 'finding the cells/nucleii' on the bones and extracting their DNA to clone them then, yes, it is probably possible, although there seems to be technical difficulties with that...


And you could build up a zoo of extinct organisms and animals and check their evolutionary trends very well in order to determine the exact lineage properly.

Yes... To an extent.
As people have mentioned, DNA is degraded in the decomposition process. It still is more stable than many molecules and hangs on longer, but it ends up being degraded nonetheless.
Even on younger samples, the genome will often be sheared, short sequences of incomplete DNA.
So, there would be a limit about how far we can go until there is no DNA left for us to extract and how ancient the species in our zoo could be.

As far as studying evolution, then, it would be of limited interest.
It's a bit like, if you want to study history be looking at videos. It probably works fine for the most recent events, but it only covers the last century or so of events, anything older, you simply won't have any records to go by...
And, our extracted DNA would be about the same, a very short tentalizing snapshot but not covering a big enough timespan to record much of the 4 billion years of evolution.


This could rule out or rule in the sudden appearance of mutations along the evolutionary lineage.
The implications for sudden mutations is quite important but not so important in the bigger scheme of things.

Mutations are all pretty sudden, but, I guess you mean, big, rapid evolutionary changes and, yes, these ones are difficult to pinpoints in the fossil records. Keep in mind, however, that the fossil record is much more complete than many people give it credit for...


There is yet one other aspect.
We, the organisms leaving today, are still carrying genes inherited from our ancestors. So, by comparing the genomes of two related species, one can discover the genes they have in common, inherited from their common ancestor. This is routinely performed in labs all over the world and gives us quite an insight in the evolution, beyond 'mere skeletons' and this technique allows us to look quite a bit further than any DNA that'd we could be extracting from bones...
 
Well, for one thing, it takes more than just DNA to clone an organism, at least with current technology. Generally speaking, you need a nucleus from a living cell, and a living egg of the organism you are trying to clone. The usual procedure is to take a nucleus from a somatic cell and inject it into an egg. Possibly, if you had a frozen or otherwise very well preserved cell from an extinct organism, you could put a nucleus into the egg of a related non-extinct organism. For example, there has been talk of using tissue from frozen mammoths, several which have been found, and cloning them using elephant eggs. It hasn't actually been done. I don't know if it's been attempted.

I have no idea where you got the idea that mammals have devolved into fish. It hasn't happened,
 
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I am a layman in all respects and i am confused a little by certain evolutionary theories. We know that once there were mammals that devolved back into fish and that fossil records are based on skeletons and not necessarily biological processes.


'devolved' is not a term that has meaning in evolutionary theory, for it suggests a backwards step. Evolution doesn't have a direction or goal or purpose.

Evolution involves change, adaptation to local environment, and the relative reproductive success of genes that provide a reproductive advantage.

Everything that is alive on Earth has evolved for the same amount of time. Everything is equally evolved.

If a life-line (shifting sequence or braid of species - my term) moved back and forth between the oceans and dry land repeatedly over time, it would simply be doing what was advantageous to it at the time, given the environmental changes that were occurring. More correctly, individual organisms are reproducing - I hope you get my point.

This life-line would not be evolving and then 'devolving' repeatedly, it is only evolving.
 
As i said, i am a layman, and so i don't know the terminology properly. But the idea should have been assmilated properly without the nitpicking.


Without regard to the posts in this thread...

Words matter, and ideas should not be assimilated unless they are correct.
 
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OK, i like McH and Ginger and the last poster's posts. I didn't mean to say that once a species was set on a course it didn't revert again. But yes, as someone pointed out, it was a type of whale. So if you would be so kind as to debunk the whale one, we could end this thread, or perhaps give it fuel in a kind of developing biogenetic cloning topic. Because as was said, and which i was half thinking of, maybe in the future we could isolate certain type of genetic codes to build organisms or even animals from them, and then track the evolutionary lineage more closely.


Species don't do things, individuals do.

Species don't set out on a course.

'Revert' has no meaning in evolutionary theory.
 
Your analysis is stubbornly biased. You say that devolution doesn't exist even though you put it in inverted commas as if you didn't understand what was meant by it in the first place. no, devolution is the opposite of evolution in terms of progress. Natural selection doesn't specify that species that are unfit die off immediately. Indeed, there is good reason to think that species do revert to primitive forms.

It is comforting to think that evolution proceeds in a linear fashion but it is simply not even true.


No one who knows what they are talking about speaks of 'evolution proceeding in a linear fashion'. We haven't been. Your thinking on this subject, on the other hand, is quite linear, and quite wrong.

Life is a bush, not a ladder.

'progress' has no meaning in evolutionary theory.

'revert' has no meaning in evolutionary theory.

'primitive' has no meaning in evolutionary theory.

I wish that you had a clue about what you are talking about.

Read some good science books and don't talk about evolution again until you have.
 
Greetings, Sunstar! I see you are indeed a newbie when it comes to evolutionary theory. Perhaps this introductory web site will help you get the real story of what this incredibly non-intuitive science is all about: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01

Don't let some of these other posters get to you. They mean well, but sometimes they are a little too "wired up" to be confrontational when talking about evolution, for some reason. There is no shame in not knowing anything about evolution. Minds more brilliant than ours knew nothing about it for thousands of years! But, if this is a topic you wish to partake in discussions about, I recommend you read through the Evolution 101 web site I linked you to above.
 
Correction, it was not that whales evolved from mammals, it was that they started out as fish and became semi mammals and then reverted back to fish.

How old are you? I am 30.


30 is very old to still be this ignorant.

Read some good science. You have very little time left, and a great deal to learn.

Hint: Before you try to add to that cup your call your mind, please empty it out - everything goes. You have accumulated a lot of erroneous garbage.
 
'Revert' has no meaning in evolutionary theory.

Actually, it does.
For example, you take a pathogen and culture it for a few generations, odds are its going to loose virulence, basically, accumulate mutations in the virulence genes it is not using.
Yet, inject it back into an organism for a few generations and the virulence will be back, basically, it will now be under selective pressure to be virulent, while it was not before.
The term often employed is 'revert' to virulence.

In the case of whales, of course, this can not be employed, as the mammalian lineage had been terrestrial for so long that the whales' ancestors had loss any trace of the genes in question (or, more likely, these genes had evolved into something quite different and unrecognizable), so the whales had to 're-invent' all the genes involved in the aquatic life-style...


Also, mammals are still fish, 'once you are in the club, you can't get out' as Dr. Davies said in this week's episode of 'Monster talk' (soon on the internet near you).
 
On a the topic of cloning, here is a question I would like to throw out, here:

If we know that cellular development is primarily regulated, or (in an approximate sense) "determined" by DNA, would it be possible to reverse engineer what the DNA was like, based on anything else we know about the fossil's cellular development and structure?

I think this question is in the spirit of the opening post.
 

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