Sociopaths

[Ladewig]

I’m not sure I’m following your logic here. You’re saying that if the diagnosis includes too many people the diagnosis becomes meaningless?

I can't speak for Acuity, but my take on it is to wonder how they determined who was really a monomaniacal, manipulative sociopath and who was merely an ambitious, determined, successful business manager. To claim any majority, much less a huge majority, seems a bit overreaching. Any chance of getting a look at the methods used by the article's authors?

 

[Thinktoomuch]

Two problems: one, claiming to be a Doctor without possessing medical credentials is fraud, even in a libertarian society; two, in a libertarian society, pychics would not get government money or privileges like they do in our current one. Religions and psychics would pay taxes and user fees just like anyone else.

Point one: Doctor does not mean physician, according to the dictionary it could even be a ship's cook. What you are referring to is practising a registrable profession without being registered.

Point two. We seem to have a different understanding of the word "libertarian". You seem to suggest that the US is not a libertarian society because "churches" get tax breaks. Is it so? What would be your example of an existing libertarian (or more libertarian, if your definition is utopian) State?

 

[Thinktoomuch]

Regarding the discussion about the number of sociopaths in senior management.

Without specific reference to the article quoted, we are speculating, but it appears to me that the value of the argument has been reduced by talking of a "great majority" and "upper" management. These are sweeping statements that in themselves attract criticism.

I read an article along those lines 2/3 years ago (possibly the same?) and I am quite convinced, based on my experience, that the argument is sound: the problem, as usual, is in the measurement.

A back of the envelope calculation could provide a bit of perspective.

The consensus seems to be (look at previous posts) that the proportion of "clinically defined" sociopaths is between 2 and 4%. Say 3% or 9 million people.

"Upper management" of large corporations must be a relatively small number, say one in 1000? It still amounts to "hundreds of thousands", i.e. 300,000.

I do not believe for a moment that a "huge majority" of these people is clinically a sociopath, (I''ll take any bets that at least 10% is, though) but even if, absurdly, 60% was, it would mean that the proportion in this small sample of the population is 20 times bigger than in the population as a whole. Would anybody be surprised if a similar proportion were found in another small group at the other end of the spectrum, eg jail inmates?

 

[chrisa]

People like SB and JE are in it solely for the profit and celebrity that they gain. With so many TV talk shows, primetime TV series and cable outlets available to these "actors", it is inevitable that these characters exist. Offer a stage and many players will come forth.

I'm not sure about people like Pat Robertson—they either believe what they say and feel a need to get their message out OR they are just bigoted, homophobic, hypocrites willing to do and say anything to protect their own warped sense of morality. Either way, they need some serious help from a therapist. I don't necessarily believe that they are sociopaths but they do certainly validate the thoughts of real sociopaths which is a very dangerous game.

 

[skeptifem]

Are pyschics (as in Sylvia "Skanky" Brown, John Edward and such) and faith healers (as in that Popoff jackass and Pat Robertson and Anal Roberts) sociopaths in your opinion? Given different circumstances would these people be exploiting the vulnerable for monetary gain by some other method? My personal opinion is that you have to be a sociopath to do what these people do and these are the sort of people who are capable of atrocities were it to serve their interests.

No, I would imagine not. There are people who do believe they can actually make predictions accuratley, and its impossible to tell who does and who knows they are full of it.

Also plenty of non sociopathic people do things they shouldnt. Its easy to justify what you do if you are greedy enough- look at regular scammers. I would hardly say its accurate to think that the amount of people sending 419 emails from nigeria are all sociopaths- they just found an easy way to make a quick buck, and decided their marks are stupid and deserve it. I see 419 scams and psychics as very similar things when the psychic knows they cant really see the future.

A person with antisocial personality disorder (what is commonly referred to as a sociopath) does not care about the rights of others and will not accomplish any long term goals because of having impulse control problems and excitment issues- it takes seriously risky behavior to excite an antisocial personality disorder and if there is an oppertunity the person will take it(like stealing money from jobs and stealing from cars, or starting fights- stuff like that). This is where psychics like sylvia browne and others differ- they stick with the same scam over and over, i doubt she gets any mental excitement from readings anymore, and she has stuck with this pretty much her whole life and has become very successful.

Psychics who know better, and I imagine the successful ones do, are hardly moral or ethical people but I can say with quite a bit of certainty that they do not need to have a personality disorder to scam people. If sylvia browne had a personality disorder I would guess that she has histronic personality disorder.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe06.html

 

[oglommi]

Personally I bet they are sociopaths, their entire lifre revolves around lying and frauding others seemingly without any remorse. Somebody who is qualified should take the psychopaths checklist on them.

http://www.swin.edu.au/victims/resources/assessment/personality/psychopathy_checklist.html

 

[Ladewig]

I do not believe for a moment that a "huge majority" of these people is clinically a sociopath, (I''ll take any bets that at least 10% is, though) but even if, absurdly, 60% was, it would mean that the proportion in this small sample of the population is 20 times bigger than in the population as a whole. Would anybody be surprised if a similar proportion were found in another small group at the other end of the spectrum, eg jail inmates?

I'd be damned surprised if 60% of all inmates were classified as clinical sociopaths. But I agree with your point. As for 10% of upper management, I suppose I could classify that figure as very much more plausable than 60%, but I still would want to see the methodology used to reach that conclusion.

 

[Ladewig]

No, I would imagine not. There are people who do believe they can actually make predictions accurately, and its impossible to tell who does and who knows they are full of it.

While it may be impossible to tell with 100% certainty, there are indicators as to which side of the fence each psychic might fall on. Refusing to take the JREF challenge, telling lies about the JREF challenge, being caught doing hot and warm reading, making statements so vague that audience members fight over who is being read, refusing to admit one is ever wrong¹, and becoming upset when clients do not provide immediate and clear feedback to one's statements (more often questions than statements) are signs that a psychic is, as you put it, full of it.

________
1
SBrowne: "She passed quickly"
audience member: "No, it was a very prolonged death."
SBrowne: "I mean she was there one moment and gone the next"

JVPraag: "Does that make sense?"
audience member: " No, there was no one like that in my family."
JVPraag: "Well, think about it again when you get home, It is possible that you can't remember it right now because you are here in the studio."

 

[skeptifem]

Personally I bet they are sociopaths, their entire lifre revolves around lying and frauding others seemingly without any remorse. Somebody who is qualified should take the psychopaths checklist on them.

http://www.swin.edu.au/victims/resources/assessment/personality/psychopathy_checklist.html

sociopaths and psychopaths are not the same thing.

 

[skeptifem]

While it may be impossible to tell with 100% certainty, there are indicators as to which side of the fence each psychic might fall on. Refusing to take the JREF challenge, telling lies about the JREF challenge, being caught doing hot and warm reading, making statements so vague that audience members fight over who is being read, refusing to admit one is ever wrong¹, and becoming upset when clients do not provide immediate and clear feedback to one's statements (more often questions than statements) are signs that a psychic is, as you put it, full of it.

________
1
SBrowne: "She passed quickly"
audience member: "No, it was a very prolonged death."
SBrowne: "I mean she was there one moment and gone the next"

JVPraag: "Does that make sense?"
audience member: " No, there was no one like that in my family."
JVPraag: "Well, think about it again when you get home, It is possible that you can't remember it right now because you are here in the studio."

The OP was trying to establish that psychics are behaving in a manner that isnt ethical, but I do not think all of them are out to sucker people.

I addressed plenty in my post how knowing you are full of it doesnt= personality disorder for people like that. I outlined my doubts.

 

[luchog]

Psychics receive government money?



I have never heard the claim that psychics are exempt from taxes. Is that true?

When they incorporate as a religious organization and get 501c tax-exempt status, they get special government privileges. This has already happened at least once, as noted in another thread.

 

[luchog]

Point one: Doctor does not mean physician, according to the dictionary it could even be a ship's cook. What you are referring to is practising a registrable profession without being registered.

Disingenuous. The context clearly referred to a medical practitioner. Fraud and misrepresentation are still crimes in a libertarian culture.

Point two. We seem to have a different understanding of the word "libertarian". You seem to suggest that the US is not a libertarian society because "churches" get tax breaks. Is it so? What would be your example of an existing libertarian (or more libertarian, if your definition is utopian) State?

Clearly. The US is nowhere near a libertarian society, even a minarchist one.
Here are some resources on libertarianism:

Libertarianism
Minarchism
Institute for Humane Studies
Libertarian Economics
Neolibertarian

 

[luchog]

I do not believe for a moment that a "huge majority" of these people is clinically a sociopath,

Gah. That was actually a misstatement. What I meant to say was "huge percentage"; although I forget what the article actually estimated, and I haven't been able to find my link.

 

[Ladewig]

I addressed plenty in my post how knowing you are full of it doesnt= personality disorder for people like that. I outlined my doubts.

I concur.

The OP was trying to establish that psychics are behaving in a manner that isnt ethical, but I do not think all of them are out to sucker people.

Can you give some example of ones that are not out to sucker people?

 

[Ladewig]

When they incorporate as a religious organization and get 501c tax-exempt status, they get special government privileges. This has already happened at least once, as noted in another thread.

Again, I have never heard of that. Could you direct me to the relevant thread?

Also, are you equating "getting government money" with "not paying taxes"? I see the two as very different.

 

[oglommi]

sociopaths and psychopaths are not the same thing.

And the difference is?

As I understand it sociopaths and psychopaths are basically the same thing but psychopaths are more unstable. While sociopaths can function in society. The checklist should work for both groups.

 

[Thinktoomuch]

My apologies, Luchog, but I still have difficulties following your reasoning.

Originally Posted by Thinktoomuch
Point one: Doctor does not mean physician, according to the dictionary it could even be a ship's cook. What you are referring to is practising a registrable profession without being registered.
Quote:
Disingenuous. The context clearly referred to a medical practitioner. Fraud and misrepresentation are still crimes in a libertarian culture.
Point two. We seem to have a different understanding of the word "libertarian". You seem to suggest that the US is not a libertarian society because "churches" get tax breaks. Is it so? What would be your example of an existing libertarian (or more libertarian, if your definition is utopian) State?

Clearly. The US is nowhere near a libertarian society, even a minarchist one.

By saying

Disingenuous. The context clearly referred to a medical practitioner.

you appear to state that 1) you believe to have a better understanding than I have of what is in my own mind and 2) that I am twisting my words to make it look like I meant something different from what you think I meant.

How did you get a reference to people graduating from The University Of Metaphysical Sciences being able to call themselves Doctor to be a "clear" reference to the medical profession? I am sure you are not being disingenuous. As I do not like to support my argument by using disparaging words, I let the readers add an appropriate comment to the quality of your reasoning.

As regards the use of "libertarian", as I expected, you take it to the extreme of being virtually a synonim of anarchist. I repeat my question. Would you care to identify a country with a more libertarian culture than in the US where you would like to live?

 

[Thinktoomuch]

Again, I have never heard of that. Could you direct me to the relevant thread?

See post 53.

Also, are you equating "getting government money" with "not paying taxes"? I see the two as very different.

When an organisation (which generally has tax exemption status, i.e. does not pay taxes) is entitled by law to receive tax deductible donations (different but connected concept), in effect gets "government money".

When you say to the tax office "I gave $10,000 to the Church of Scientology, so my income is reduced by this amount" and your marginal tax rate is, say, 50%, in effect you say "instead of giving you $5,000 to spend at the Government's pleasure, I have given your $,5000, plus $5,000 of my own money, to the Church of Scientology, with your blessing."

 

[skeptifem]

Maybe not, Our laws already jail ripoff artists who prey on the vulnerable. Why not procecute Browne and Edward for doing the same? "For entertainment purposes"?

yeah and hey when they said 'littleman' was the best comedy of the year in the commercial i should be able to sue because it wasnt, right?

 

[skeptifem]

I concur.



Can you give some example of ones that are not out to sucker people?

people who really do think they have some sort of powers. I imagine these people dont get too far money wise with predictions because they dont learn to cold read.

And the difference is?

As I understand it sociopaths and psychopaths are basically the same thing but psychopaths are more unstable. While sociopaths can function in society. The checklist should work for both groups.

A psychopath is not the same as an antisocial personality. Antisocial personalities may or may not be psychopathic. The antisocial personality is primarily a problem involving a failure to respect the right of individuals, the law and rules of society. Psychopathy involves poor emotional intelligence, the lack of conscience, and an inability to feel attached to people except in terms of their value as a source of stimulation or new possessions. There are many expressions and forms of psychopathy. For instance, a sexual psychopath is one form of a psychopath

http://www.oregoncounseling.org/Handouts/PsychopathicPersonality.htm

basically the way i see it is antiosocial personality disorder=apathy, not caring about much of anything, including others and the self, and i see psychopathy as activley wanting to hurt others for pleasure, while investing a lot in their own self worth.