Sociopaths

[billydkid]

Are pyschics (as in Sylvia "Skanky" Brown, John Edward and such) and faith healers (as in that Popoff jackass and Pat Robertson and Anal Roberts) sociopaths in your opinion? Given different circumstances would these people be exploiting the vulnerable for monetary gain by some other method? My personal opinion is that you have to be a sociopath to do what these people do and these are the sort of people who are capable of atrocities were it to serve their interests.

 

[Ladewig]

I doubt that SB and JvP are sociopaths. When they are confronted they virtually always respond with some amount of anger. A true sociopath wouldn't respond that way. I consider them immoral rather than amoral.

 

[Loss Leader]

You'd have to discount the increadible power of self-deception. People like Popoff can actually hear his wife's voice in his ear, misuse the prayer cards and get caught doing it and still actually believe they're healing people. The same may be true of Browne. Edwards, on the other hand, is just a douche.

 

[Moochie]

Are pyschics (as in Sylvia "Skanky" Brown, John Edward and such) and faith healers (as in that Popoff jackass and Pat Robertson and Anal Roberts) sociopaths in your opinion? Given different circumstances would these people be exploiting the vulnerable for monetary gain by some other method? My personal opinion is that you have to be a sociopath to do what these people do and these are the sort of people who are capable of atrocities were it to serve their interests.

Sociopaths are generally created by circumstances. The folks you mention choose to do what they do. Socially sanctioned sociopathy, if you like.

M.

 

[fishbait]

My personal opinion is that you have to be a sociopath to do what these people do and these are the sort of people who are capable of atrocities were it to serve their interests.

A sociopath is one who exhibits asocial or antisocial behavior due to a personality disorder. The people cited do not fit this description. They are simply media savvy hucksters out to make a buck. They identify or create a need, claim to be able to fill that need, then cleverly put on a dog and pony show aimed at people who have the perceived need. They're the P.T. Barnums of religion and spirituality. Their only interests are making a greasy dollar. The one thing they all have in common is that they are rich.

A true sociopath capable of atrocities would be huddled in a dank basement wiring a pipe bomb by the light of a 50 watt bare lightbulb, or leading his flock of believers to Guyana for a Kool Ade and strychnine cocktail, not on national television selling books and magic prayer cloths.

 

[Francesca R]

Are pyschics (as in Sylvia "Skanky" Brown, John Edward and such) and faith healers (as in that Popoff jackass and Pat Robertson and Anal Roberts) sociopaths in your opinion? Given different circumstances would these people be exploiting the vulnerable for monetary gain by some other method? My personal opinion is that you have to be a sociopath to do what these people do and these are the sort of people who are capable of atrocities were it to serve their interests.

No certainly they are not in my opinion. Is your argument a precursor to another one--that their liberty should therefore be curtailed by the state? I would vehemently disagree with that too.

What is your definition of "exploiting" and "vulnerable"? Does Steve Jobs do this by selling iPods? Do Phillip Morris do it by selling tobacco? Do lottery companies do it? Are they sociopaths too (in your opinion)?

 

[blutoski]

Are pyschics (as in Sylvia "Skanky" Brown, John Edward and such) and faith healers (as in that Popoff jackass and Pat Robertson and Anal Roberts) sociopaths in your opinion? Given different circumstances would these people be exploiting the vulnerable for monetary gain by some other method? My personal opinion is that you have to be a sociopath to do what these people do and these are the sort of people who are capable of atrocities were it to serve their interests.

You'd need to do an examination of the people in question to determine whether they have this personality disorder. However, a mental disorder is not necessary to be a crook.

To answer part of your question: yes, I do think that these people would find another scam if this one became unprofitable. Specifically, in the case of Browne, she was involved in real estate fraud before "moving up" to this psychic deception.

No certainly they are not in my opinion. Is your argument a precursor to another one--that their liberty should therefore be curtailed by the state? I would vehemently disagree with that too.

What is your definition of "exploiting" and "vulnerable"? Does Steve Jobs do this by selling iPods? Do Phillip Morris do it by selling tobacco? Do lottery companies do it? Are they sociopaths too (in your opinion)?

You're confusing 'fraud' with 'commerce'.

Also: many professions that operate off of people's misery are regulated to reduce the temptation of client exploitation. Law, therapy, and medicine come to mind.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Sociopaths are generally created by circumstances. The folks you mention choose to do what they do. Socially sanctioned sociopathy, if you like.
M.

Sorry if this is the fallacy of "appealing to authority," but my husband is a psychotherapist. Of course they "choose" to do what they do, that is what a sociopath (now known as "antisocial personality") is - someone who chooses to live at the expense (whether financial, emotional, health-related) of the rest of society without regard for the damage it causes.

I doubt that SB and JvP are sociopaths. When they are confronted they virtually always respond with some amount of anger. A true sociopath wouldn't respond that way. I consider them immoral rather than amoral.

Sociopaths are indignant if called on their behavior. They will explain, justify, swear that they were forced to do what they did by society, the therapist, their spouses, pick something. They are amoral because they have no way to conceptualize or internalize the concept of morality.

A true sociopath capable of atrocities would be huddled in a dank basement wiring a pipe bomb by the light of a 50 watt bare lightbulb, or leading his flock of believers to Guyana for a Kool Ade and strychnine cocktail, not on national television selling books and magic prayer cloths.

He's only going to be wiring pipe bombs if there's some kind of payoff for him in the job (think mob hitman.) Selling books and magic prayer cloths, on the other hand, have a great payoff, and, if done carefully, have almost no downside for the scammer. (Jim Jones was probably a narcissist, not antisocial personality.)

Diagnosis is tricky because symptoms and indicators can overlap, but an antisocial personality is not going to be a suicide bomber. No payoff. Check DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the resource used for official psychological diagnoses) IVR for the latest information.

In my opinion, most professional psychics, faith healers, etc., are antisocial personalities. There may be a few who are genuinely self-deluded and believe in their own "powers," but by far the vast majority are dangerous rip-off artists.

 

[Ladewig]

No certainly they are not in my opinion. Is your argument a precursor to another one--that their liberty should therefore be curtailed by the state? I would vehemently disagree with that too.

What is your definition of "exploiting" and "vulnerable"? Does Steve Jobs do this by selling iPods? Do Phillip Morris do it by selling tobacco? Do lottery companies do it? Are they sociopaths too (in your opinion)?

I can't speak for billythekid, so I'll give my definition of vulnerable: so striken with grief that they are willing to spend $500/hour to play 20 Questions.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Sorry if this is the fallacy of "appealing to authority," but my husband is a psychotherapist. Of course they "choose" to do what they do, that is what a sociopath (now known as "antisocial personality") is - someone who chooses to live at the expense (whether financial, emotional, health-related) of the rest of society without regard for the damage it causes...[/CUOTE]


I didn't comment on this before because I'm not a clinical psychologist. But according to my knowledge of the DSMIVR, you and your husband are correct.
As my abnormal psych professor Al Branca used to say, "Those sociopaths are everywhere, in goverment, in business, even in university pysch departments."'
This was 45 years ago, when the DSM was I, or maybe II.

 

[Thinktoomuch]

You're confusing 'fraud' with 'commerce'

.

Are you sure you can make an unequivocal distinction?

As my abnormal psych professor Al Branca used to say, "Those sociopaths are everywhere, in goverment, in business, even in university pysch departments."'
This was 45 years ago

From the comment on the book at Amazon.com:

We are accustomed to think of sociopaths as violent criminals, but in The Sociopath Next Door, Harvard psychologist Martha Stout reveals that a shocking 4 percent of ordinary people—one in twenty-five—has an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath.

and it appears that there is a high number of them among successful executives: greed is good!

If memory serves me well, Harvard Business School's prevailing theory 40 years ago was that business should not be expected to be ethical.

There are laws defining what is fraud. Exploiting vulnerable people might be unethical but is rarely fraudulent from a legal point of view. How often do you see a psychic being prosecuted?

 

[Ladewig]

.
There are laws defining what is fraud. Exploiting vulnerable people might be unethical but is rarely fraudulent from a legal point of view. How often do you see a psychic being prosecuted?

It does happen. More often on a state level than a national level although here is a recent federal case:

According to previous in-court statements, Marks, a self-proclaimed psychic and fortune teller, agreed that she was responsible for bilking over two (2) million dollars from numerous elderly and otherwise vulnerable victims from 1994 through 2002.

Some states even outlaw fortune telling altogether: North Carolina, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Minnesota.

After Death Communicators (ADCers) often get around laws by posting a disclaimer at the end of their programs saying that what they are doing is "for entertainment purposes only." If I had political power, I would require that such statements be much more prominently displayed - perhaps even going as far as having the disclaimer appear across the bottom of the screen for the entire show.

 

[Francesca R]

You're confusing 'fraud' with 'commerce'.

I didn't mention fraud, neither did the OP

I can't speak for billythekid, so I'll give my definition of vulnerable: so striken with grief that they are willing to spend $500/hour to play 20 Questions.

Grief? I don't see why being vulnerable needs grief to exist as a qualification.

 

[Ladewig]

Let's back up. You asked

What is your definition of "exploiting" and "vulnerable"?
Does Steve Jobs do this by selling iPods?
Do Phillip Morris do it by selling tobacco?
Do lottery companies do it?
Are they sociopaths too (in your opinion)?

People buying iPods, cigarettes, or lottery tickets are not vulnerable in the same way that many of the people buying sessions with ADCers. The majority of people buying the products you mentioned have the tools to make informed judgements about their purchases, and therefore are not vulnerable. People paying money to ADCers often have their judgement clouded by the loss of a loved one. These people are vulnerable to well-known con artists like S. Browne, J. vanPraag, and J. Edward.

Grief? I don't see why being vulnerable needs grief to exist as a qualification.

Grief is not the only way a consumer can become vulnerable to exploitation, but it is one way (probably the most common way) that consumers of ADC can become vulnerable to exploitation.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

People buying iPods, cigarettes, or lottery tickets are not vulnerable in the same way that many of the people buying sessions with ADCers. The majority of people buying the products you mentioned have the tools to make informed judgements about their purchases, and therefore are not vulnerable.

I won't argue iPods, but I'll take a shot at Lottery tickets and cigarettes.

One (humorous) definition of Lottery is "A tax for people who can't do math". In typical (US State) lotteries, not only is winning the big jackpot is a huge longshot (80 million to 1 for the Powerball), but the payoff is actually very poor. I think typical payout is something like 50% of the fees collected. Vegas slot machines have a much better payout percentage. Based on those two statistics, anyone making an informed decision, should not purchase lottery tickets. People are vulnerable in their greed, their judgment is clouded by fantasies of a huge payout, and they stupidly spend money that they shouldn't. Organizations that run lotteries are preying on the vulnerable.

Cigarettes are both addictive and harmful. Anyone who selling them is preying on the vulnerable.

 

[Francesca R]

People buying iPods, cigarettes, or lottery tickets are not vulnerable in the same way that many of the people buying sessions with ADCers. The majority of people buying the products you mentioned have the tools to make informed judgements about their purchases, and therefore are not vulnerable. People paying money to ADCers often have their judgement clouded by the loss of a loved one. These people are vulnerable to well-known con artists like S. Browne, J. vanPraag, and J. Edward.

They still have the tools to make informed judgements.

Grief is not the only way a consumer can become vulnerable to exploitation, but it is one way (probably the most common way) that consumers of ADC can become vulnerable to exploitation.

Would you regulate against selling things like "ADC" to the grief-stricken? Anything else you would regulate, such as fancy expensive funerals "that would have been just what dear old Susie would wanted"?

 

[Francesca R]

Organizations that run lotteries are preying on the vulnerable.

Cigarettes are both addictive and harmful. Anyone who selling them is preying on the vulnerable.

I know you're not the OP. But would you say that lottery-runners and tobacco sellers are sociopaths? And would you say that faith healers are?

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

They still have the tools to make informed judgements.

So do the grief stricken. Those tools may be impaired, but they're still there.

Would you regulate against selling things like "ADC" to the grief-stricken? Anything else you would regulate, such as fancy expensive funerals "that would have been just what dear old Susie would wanted"?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but...
No, I wouldn't. For the same reasons that I wouldn't make it illegal to sell cigarettes to the addicted, or lottery tickets to those poor in math skills. However, I certainly support those who speak out against Evil Things (tm). Education is the key, not legislation. Critical thinking should be taught in schools.

 

[Francesca R]

So do the grief stricken. Those tools may be impaired, but they're still there.

That's exactly what I meant—I was referring to the grief-striken.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but...
No, I wouldn't. For the same reasons that I wouldn't make it illegal to sell cigarettes to the addicted, or lottery tickets to those poor in math skills. However, I certainly support those who speak out against Evil Things (tm). Education is the key, not legislation. Critical thinking should be taught in schools.

We are in violent agreement. Calling them sociopaths is a wrong-headed attempt to demonise them IMO and contrary to critical thinking.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

I know you're not the OP. But would you say that lottery-runners and tobacco sellers are sociopaths? And would you say that faith healers are?

IANAP/P (I am not a Psychiatrist/Psychologist), but I'd have to say yes to all of the above. According to another post in this thread...

Of course they "choose" to do what they do, that is what a sociopath (now known as "antisocial personality") is - someone who chooses to live at the expense (whether financial, emotional, health-related) of the rest of society without regard for the damage it causes.

Now, I'm not saying that the convenience store clerk who sells cigarettes & Lottery tickets is a Sociopath, but the execs at Phillip Morris... I'd say yes according to that definition. Either that, or they are actually deluded in believing their bull5h!t(cigarettes are not harmful, and John Edward really can talk to the dead).