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So?

Profanz

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Profanz
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Oct 24, 2007
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Has it been determined yet if Jesus actually existed? What is the historical evidence? Who cares if he was the son of god? Was he ever even really here?
 
Profanz said:
Has it been determined yet if Jesus actually existed? What is the historical evidence? Who cares if he was the son of god? Was he ever even really here?
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Much of this is currently being slugged out by mighty polemicists in the "Why didn't Jesus write anything down" thread, which I recommend to you.
 
Well, of course there was a real guy called Jesus Christ, but his real name was Bill Cosby ;)

 
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I can summarize it for you : nobody knows for sure. There are good argument either way. But who cares ? Even if he existed, he was a human, probably mentally ill if he really thought he was speaking to Yhwh (or a scammer), and died that day when executed, unless youa re christian in which case you have faith he resurected etc...

So non existence is only a problem if you are christian, but existence is not damaging on anybody's belief.
 
Aepervius said:
So non existence is only a problem if you are christian, but existence is not damaging on anybody's belief.
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Why should Jesus' non-existence be a problem to a Christian? Just take the passages figuratively.

For example, God in his love for us gave us this story of his self-sacrifice (I'm not joking here -- I think this is reasonable for a person of deep faith) in order to provide us redemption, but He is all-powerful and therefore it is not necessary that it actually happened in history. Our belief is enough, and qualifying that belief that way doesn't harm it.

I dare say 20% or so of Buddhists I meet don't think Gautama really existed, at least not as he appears in the Buddha story. They still go to Temple and practice mindfulness and Buddhist ethics and so on. Other Buddhists when told of this non-belief are okay with it -- they say it doesn't really matter what happened historically when one is dealing with one's own path.
 
Non existence is a problem because for many christian sect a lot of the *basis* work of the religion hinge on the christ existing and being a savior. Transubstantitation, sins , saving , if the guy did not exists all of that is utter pointless. Christianity is not mainly based on philosophy (like buddhism) but on worship of certain figures and facts. Mary. Christ. Intercessory prayer. And so forth.

Remove Mary, Remove Christ and you can throw most of the NT in the fire. You eliminate catholicism for example.

Contrast with buddhism where you can adhere to the religion, without having a living buddha, transubstantiation and itnercessory prayer to a non existant christ make *no* sense whatsoever. Heck why do you think it is called christianism.

Oh yeah you might as well renamed it paulinism, as discussed in this threads, or even Yhwhism.
 
RandFan said:
I don't know. Ehrman, an atheist and author of Misquoting Jesus seem to think so and makes a fairly compelling argument.

Bart Ehrman on the Existence of a Historical Jesus
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Well, yes, but see the extensive discussion of Ehrman's book in the "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)" thread linked above, which concluded that he seems to make a distinction between the historical Jesus that he says existed and a divine Jesus.
 
Profanz said:
Has it been determined yet if Jesus actually existed? What is the historical evidence? Who cares if he was the son of god? Was he ever even really here?
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Great post! You should try to apply this kind of critical thinking to the 9/11 forum.
 
Mojo said:
Well, yes, but see the extensive discussion of Ehrman's book in the "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)" thread linked above, which concluded that he seems to make a distinction between the historical Jesus that he says existed and a divine Jesus.
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I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. That is correct.
 
deaman said:
Whether jesus existed or not, will you be a different person than you are?
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The problem I have with this kind of hypothetical is that there is no way to know. There's too many assumptions that must be made. I damn sure know that had I lived during the time of Jesus knowing what I know now, I would have been morally obligated to prevent human sacrifice. What is immoral cannot be made moral by fiat. Omnipotence and omniscience doesn't give any entity the right to sit idle while a human being (son of god or not) to suffer and die. And the plan that his son be killed to pay for people's crimes is absurd and saying that omnipotent god had no other choice is silly beyond comprehension.
 
I don't believe in jesus, god or gods.....

RandFan said:
The problem I have with this kind of hypothetical is that there is no way to know. There's too many assumptions that must be made. I damn sure know that had I lived during the time of Jesus knowing what I know now, I would have been morally obligated to prevent human sacrifice. What is immoral cannot be made moral by fiat. Omnipotence and omniscience doesn't give any entity the right to sit idle while a human being (son of god or not) to suffer and die. And the plan that his son be killed to pay for people's crimes is absurd and saying that omnipotent god had no other choice is silly beyond comprehension.
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I'm going to assume you would not be any different, even if you did believe in such myth's.
 
RandFan said:
I don't know. Ehrman, an atheist and author of Misquoting Jesus seem to think so and makes a fairly compelling argument.

Bart Ehrman on the Existence of a Historical Jesus
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What argument was that? His recent book was absolutely dismal scholarship, especially when dealing with his treatment of Doherty

His stance probably could have been guessed by those who heard Ehrman on the Infidelguy show years ago, but normally we see much, MUCH better scholarship from Ehrman

His book gives no argument for a historical Jesus

The article you link only offers an appeal to authority, an appeal to the bible, and an argument from ignorance
 
deaman said:
I'm going to assume you would not be any different, even if you did believe in such myth's.
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I wish you had used the term "believe" in your original post.

When I believed in such myths I went to church weekly, served a mission, actively proselytized on a part time basis for years after my mission, volunteered as Sunday School teacher, met regularly with other members in their homes to discuss religious matters, prayed daily, read scriptures daily, believed in dualism, accepted my church's stance against gays and lesbians, believed the Book of Mormon was the word of god, paid tithing.

Other than that and a hundred other things I'm exactly the same.
 
pipelineaudio said:
What argument was that? His recent book was absolutely dismal scholarship, especially when dealing with his treatment of Doherty

His stance probably could have been guessed by those who heard Ehrman on the Infidelguy show years ago, but normally we see much, MUCH better scholarship from Ehrman

His book gives no argument for a historical Jesus

The article you link only offers an appeal to authority, an appeal to the bible, and an argument from ignorance
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We can disagree.
 
pipelineaudio said:
... His stance probably could have been guessed by those who heard Ehrman on the Infidelguy show years ago, but normally we see much, MUCH better scholarship from Ehrman

His book gives no argument for a historical Jesus

The article you link only offers an appeal to authority, an appeal to the bible, and an argument from ignorance
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Ehrman's response to Richard Carrier is worth a read. http://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/
 
RandFan said:
I wish you had used the term "believe" in your original post.

When I believed in such myths I went to church weekly, served a mission, actively proselytized on a part time basis for years after my mission, volunteered as Sunday School teacher, met regularly with other members in their homes to discuss religious matters, prayed daily, read scriptures daily, believed in dualism, accepted my church's stance against gays and lesbians, believed the Book of Mormon was the word of god, paid tithing.

Other than that and a hundred other things I'm exactly the same.
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That's hilarious and interesting, as I am also ex-mormon, and you could be writing about my own experience with the church. Almost right down the line.
 
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