Slavery

[Piscivore]

Seriously... do we need a philosophical debate about whether or not slavery is wrong? Seriously? Do we?

We've most of us been taught that, but it seems to me that this whole idea that "slavery is wrong" is a pretty recent development when considered against the scope of human history. And it isn't even universal- slavery still exists today, in all its forms. People have to participate in it, condone it, for it to still exist.

It further seems that would be a tremendous advantage to any small group's genetic survivability. The group gets to add the slave's manhours to its production without costing the group a the same resource share as another full member or competition for females.

Further, "slavery"- i.e. compulsory employment- seems like a viable way to ameliorate the cost of non-productive members of society- recidivistic prisoners, drug addicts, and the chronically un- or underemployed.

I'd like to hear some other ideas.

Thread moved from "Forum Community" to "History, Literature, and the Arts".

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Katana

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I hear the sound of a can of worms opening!

 

[TragicMonkey]

You're discounting the efforts the enslavers must expend to make sure the slaves don't rebel. Try too hard to keep them in line, and it might inspire a revolt. Be too easy, and it might inspire a revolt. Then there are the outside security requirements--you have to protect your property, as well as yourselves. You don't want to wind up enslaved by somebody else. And humans are expensive. You have to feed them and water them and shelter them, and if you take poor care of them they'll get sick, which would not only be an economic loss of their labor, but risk infecting you as well.

I think in the end it's unfeasible, costing more work than it produces.

 

[Katana]

Well, I have heard that mandating that welfare recipients (those who are capable of working) actually work for their benefits amounts to slavery.

That's an argument that I don't buy.

Yes, to continue the can o' worms...

 

[Piscivore]

You're discounting the efforts the enslavers must expend to make sure the slaves don't rebel. Try too hard to keep them in line, and it might inspire a revolt. Be too easy, and it might inspire a revolt. Then there are the outside security requirements--you have to protect your property, as well as yourselves. You don't want to wind up enslaved by somebody else. And humans are expensive. You have to feed them and water them and shelter them, and if you take poor care of them they'll get sick, which would not only be an economic loss of their labor, but risk infecting you as well.

I think in the end it's unfeasible, costing more work than it produces.

I think you are right for the most part, and I further think it is due to the industrialisation of the West that led to the end of slavery, the "morality" of it being appended as a rationalisation. The timing is curious, to be sure, as is the apparent fact that it is in unindustialised nations where it thrives today.

However, I would be surprised that were the American economy to catastrophically collapse if chattel slavery didn't at least illicitly rear its head again.

 

[skepHick]

You're discounting the efforts the enslavers must expend to make sure the slaves don't rebel. Try too hard to keep them in line, and it might inspire a revolt. Be too easy, and it might inspire a revolt. Then there are the outside security requirements--you have to protect your property, as well as yourselves. You don't want to wind up enslaved by somebody else. And humans are expensive. You have to feed them and water them and shelter them, and if you take poor care of them they'll get sick, which would not only be an economic loss of their labor, but risk infecting you as well.

I think in the end it's unfeasible, costing more work than it produces.

Tell me about it. I didn't figure all this out until after I had the kid. Doing household chores myself would have been much easier.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Shhhhh....don't talk so loud or my slaves may start getting ideas.

 

[Piscivore]

Tell me about it. I didn't figure all this out until after I had the kid. Doing household chores myself would have been much easier.

Children are more of a long-term investment.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

And they can't lift as much.

The prisoner idea is interesting if you can teach them a marketable job and not just digging ditches.

"...what we have here is a failure to communicate."

 

[Brown]

I don't know why no one has suggested this before. I mean, it's so obvious...

The USA is looking for a solution to unwanted immigration from Mexico. On the one hand, the immigrants provide cheap labor, but on the other hand, they are a drag on resources.

Isn't the solution obvious? Bring back slavery! Just repeal the 13th Amendment.

This would stop the illegal immigration problem overnight. Also, it would maintain the existing cheap labor force (arguably making the labor force even cheaper than it was before), while removing immigrants' petty legal claims to expensive entitlements such as "human rights." It's a win-win scenario!

Just in case there's someone out there who is a little slow on the uptake and who wonders whether this is a serious proposal: it isn't.

 

[skepHick]

Children are more of a long-term investment.

Yeah, that's why I gladly write the checks for the college expenses now. Mommy wants to retire before she's dead. I don't want have to be employed as a Wal-Mart greeter in my golden years. I'd much rather pretend to be one, and "accidentally" ram people with the carts as they come in the door. Then go home for a nice nap in the afternoon.

 

[skeptifem]

slavery

**** YEAH!



*waits for someone to catch the reference*

 

[Geek Goddess]

Tell me about it. I didn't figure all this out until after I had the kid. Doing household chores myself would have been much easier.

Really. You spend all that time and energy, and don't get any decent work out of them until they are about 12. Then they become teenagers, and you don't get any useful work out of them until they are 30 or so. Then you feel bad for asking them to do things, because they have their own family.

The best you can hope for is that they get you a pretty decent nursing home when they are in their 50s. And if you had just put all that money raising them into stocks and bonds, you could pay for your own cool nursing home with 30-something studs as attendants.

 

[Normal Dude]

We already have slaves. In every industrialized country. They work tirelessly for us day and night, and only rarely complain or stumble. And boy am I glad we have them.

They are machines.

 

[Dylab]

They work tirelessly... now.

 

[Geek Goddess]

For anyone who thinks that slavery is dead, I invite them to talk to my friend Pat, who is working in Dubai for the next 15 months, about the 'guest workers' the Arabs hire.

Her company must hire counselors for the western employees, to help them deal with what they see.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Tell me about it. I didn't figure all this out until after I had the kid. Doing household chores myself would have been much easier.

You're completely hoodwinked. It's you who are the slave.

 

[Gurdur]

We've most of us been taught that, but it seems to me that this whole idea that "slavery is wrong" is a pretty recent development when considered against the scope of human history.

Spartacus was 2000 years ago, and there are recorded anti-slavery writings before even then.

And it isn't even universal- slavery still exists today, in all its forms. People have to participate in it, condone it, for it to still exist.

That is a non-argument.

Rape and murder still exist today. And?

Further, "slavery"- i.e. compulsory employment- seems like a viable way to ameliorate the cost of non-productive members of society- recidivistic prisoners, drug addicts, and the chronically un- or underemployed.

It might seem that way to someone predisposed to think slavery might be OK.

Not to the rest.

I'd like to hear some other ideas.

Done.

 

[Piscivore]

Spartacus was 2000 years ago, and there are recorded anti-slavery writings before even then.

I was not aware of that. Links?

That is a non-argument.

Rape and murder still exist today. And?

The only point there is that it is not a universally understood to be an unquestionably "absolute evil" as was proposed in another thread.

It might seem that way to someone predisposed to think slavery might be OK.

Not to the rest.

Why isn't it?

Done.

Thanks.

 

[Cuddles]

Of course, there's always the question of what actually constitutes slavery. Most people would agree that abducting someone, slapping them in irons and forcing them to work for you until they drop dead with no reward and no rights probably counts as slavery. But there are plenty of other less obvious situations that could easily be seen as slavery. What about forced labour in prison? The only difference between that and the previous scenario is that society agrees only criminals do it as punishment rather than just arbitrarily picking random people. And what about community service? It's forced labour for no reward and the threat of further sanctions if you don't comply.

And what about people who technically have regular jobs but have no choice in the matter? Poor people picking crops, factory workers, that sort of thing? There are many people that have no choice about their job, it's either that or be out on the street. Is there really a difference between paying someone just enough that they can have a house and food but nothing else, and providing them with a house and food and nothing else while making them work at the exact same job?

If slavery is wrong, where is the line drawn?

I hear the sound of a can of worms opening!

Shh! That's my dinner.