Skyline Mall - Hanjour's VFR Reference?

[lapman]

So, some of you guys think that big turn was pre-planned?

I don't at all. I think he just got caught with a poorly planned descent rate, finally noticed it and decided to do the turn with which he was familiar rather than dive into the building (using a maneuver with which he was not familiar).

So, DME is not taught to light aircraft folks? How much instruction is needed to look at a window and read a number?

Of course, pilotage skills are and should be taught to beginning pilots as that is not as simple to learn as looking at a window and reading a number...

Perhaps they did plan on Hani using pilotage to find the Pentagon. If they did, it was pretty dumb and I don't think they were dumb. They had DCA turned in, so the information was there. I just think he was not accustomed to the speed and simply misjudged the descent rate requiring what I think was an unplanned turn.

Good discussion.... I'm glad we can do it without yelling at one another and calling each other vulgar names.....

No, only twoofers believe that the turn was pre-planned and difficult. It is obvious that Hani found himself to high and reverted to his GA skills. He saw the tall buildings of the mall and decided to use them as a reference since ending the turn at the mall lined him up with the Pentagon with plenty of distance to do any last minute maneuvering. That's what I would have done.

 

[celestrin]

In a big jet, you can't see under the nose.

Fair enough. But this might be where the co-pilot comes in. For instance, the most part of the 330 turn was performed with such a bank, that I imagine it would be easy for someone in the right seat to keep the Skyline highrises in eyesight and giving potencial corrections to Hanjour.

 

[celestrin]

Perhaps they did plan on Hani using pilotage to find the Pentagon. If they did, it was pretty dumb and I don't think they were dumb. They had DCA turned in, so the information was there.

Yes. But looking at the FDR, the co-pilot appears a bit nervous. IIRC, he disengaged the AP quite a few times on their way back. Perhaps he was some kind of a backup VFR guy and mistook Tysons Corner for the Sklyine complex, causing that "S" at the Dulles.

 

[beachnut]

Fair enough. But this might be where the co-pilot comes in. For instance, the most part of the 330 turn was performed with such a bank, that I imagine it would be easy for someone in the right seat to keep the Skyline highrises in eyesight and giving potencial corrections to Hanjour.

I was thinking about the turn...

I doubt Hani planned a turn based on the Mall. He was too high, and before the Pentagon went under the nose, he did a turn to loose altitude. I wonder which seat he picked to fly from. I would have turned left from the left seat, and right from the right seat. Maybe he thought he would take the right seat where all the arrogant American instructors sat berating him over the years for being the worse pilot ever!

Did Hani pick the left seat thinking it was a special seat for him due to where the instructors for years had sat? Dumb idea for the day from me.

 

[BCR]

Perhaps the image below will aid in the discussion. It is the RO2 altitude value over the loop timeframe.

 

[gumboot]

If it's been said before I've missed it so forgive me.

Do we know for sure that the Pentagon was the primary target and not a secondary target of opportunity?

Yes, the Pentagon was always going to be a 9/11 target. It was selected by Bin Laden, right at the outset.

 

[chillzero]

Yes, the Pentagon was always going to be a 9/11 target. It was selected by Bin Laden, right at the outset.

But did anyone know that on the day?

 

[Senenmut]

911 files-
from your pic above, why do u think he went up about 1700 ft at about timeframe 1332 only to decent the same amount with the loop??

how many miles was the loop?

if i remember correct, didnt the loop start at 10 miles out, kinda around the famous "of coarse the orders still stand" line attributed to cheney at 10 miles out??

 

[beachnut]

911 files-
from your pic above, why do u think he went up about 1700 ft at about timeframe 1332 only to decent the same amount with the loop??

how many miles was the loop?

if i remember correct, didnt the loop start at 10 miles out, kinda around the famous "of coarse the orders still stand" line attributed to cheney at 10 miles out??

He was descending and you gain energy, the plane can easily gain 1700 feet with a pilot who is in real jet, a heavy jet the first time.

If you are really interested you can download the FDR and see how the engines were set and why. If he was holding down pressure to descent and let up, he would rise until the planes trim state was reached in speed, then the plane would come back down.

It is not easy to get down quick, the plane is large and has lots of energy to loose before you can get it on the deck.

He was all over the sky, he was not a good pilot, and he did not care.

Why was he going up, cause he can, there is nothing stopping him.

 

[BCR]

911 files-
from your pic above, why do u think he went up about 1700 ft at about timeframe 1332 only to decent the same amount with the loop??

I'll go with what Beachnut said. This is more of a question for the pilots amongst us.

how many miles was the loop?

I have not done that calcualtion, but I might give it a shot using the RO2 speeds later.

if i remember correct, didnt the loop start at 10 miles out, kinda around the famous "of coarse the orders still stand" line attributed to cheney at 10 miles out??

I think it has been fairly well established that Cheney was referring to the UAL93 TSD approach. I'll let boone870 address that since he has done the legwork. He has a thread on that subject he started a few days ago

 

[double_o]

I think it has been fairly well established that Cheney was referring to the UAL93 TSD approach. I'll let boone870 address that since he has done the legwork. He has a thread on that subject he started a few days ago

Actually I think the "ten miles out" was referred to a medevac helicopter.

 

[BCR]

Actually I think the "ten miles out" was referred to a medevac helicopter.

Could be, but that is something boone870 is working extensively with and he is much better prepared to address. It was not AAL77 and that is what I limit my work to for the most part.

 

[Senenmut]

He was descending and you gain energy, the plane can easily gain 1700 feet with a pilot who is in real jet, a heavy jet the first time.

If you are really interested you can download the FDR and see how the engines were set and why. If he was holding down pressure to descent and let up, he would rise until the planes trim state was reached in speed, then the plane would come back down.

It is not easy to get down quick, the plane is large and has lots of energy to loose before you can get it on the deck.

He was all over the sky, he was not a good pilot, and he did not care.

Why was he going up, cause he can, there is nothing stopping him.

well, there was nothing stopping him going straight down into the pentagon either without the loop.

 

[Senenmut]

I'll go with what Beachnut said. This is more of a question for the pilots amongst us.

I have not done that calcualtion, but I might give it a shot using the RO2 speeds later.

I think it has been fairly well established that Cheney was referring to the UAL93 TSD approach. I'll let boone870 address that since he has done the legwork. He has a thread on that subject he started a few days ago

from what i understand the offical times of impact for 77 and 93 are
9:37 and for flight 93, 10:13. thats a 33 mins spread. do u really think the faa would be that off?? from great falls to d.c., it was only about 16 miles. are u trying to tell me that the cheneys "of coarse the orders still stand" quote is referring to flight 93 even though this testimony states that after 77 hits the pentagon, mineta orders airplanes to ground. that order is reported as being enacted about 945. i looked at that link but that really was not convincing even if it was a TSD approach? there is an order of events that this testimony talks about:

MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

MR. MINETA: And so I was not aware that that discussion had already taken place. But in listening to the conversation between the young man and the vice president, then at the time I didn't really recognize the significance of that. And then later I heard of the fact that the airplanes had been scrambled from Langley to come up to DC, but those planes were still about 10 minutes away. And so then, at the time we heard about the airplane that went into Pennsylvania, then I thought, "Oh, my God, did we shoot it down?" And then we had to, with the vice president, go through the Pentagon to check that out.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk, the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.

MR. HAMILTON: But there very clearly was an order to shoot commercial aircraft down.

MR. MINETA: Subsequently I found that out.

MR. HAMILTON: With respect to Flight 93, what type of information were you and the vice president receiving about that flight?
MR. MINETA: The only information we had at that point was when it crashed.

 

[dtugg]

Mineta is mistaken, his time line is not possible. You are not the first person to bring this up, it has been discussed here plenty of times.

 

[beachnut]

well, there was nothing stopping him going straight down into the pentagon either without the loop.

Physics!
Only those who have never fly heavy jets would push over and miss, since there is no way to practice a dive greater than 6 degrees clean without going supersonic.
I have a friend who died on a heavy jet clean when they pitched over past 6 degrees and further. The plane fell apart.

The fact Hani never practiced steep dives no heavy jet pilot has ever practiced clean; would make it something only an idiot would try or suggest. Balsamo is that idiot.


So you would just push over and expect what? The only thing you can do if you want a controllable plane where Hani found himself at 7,000 feet was to take the distance to descend; he choose a turn, it takes a few minutes and is so easy even a kid can fly the turn better than Hani did. Even the terrorist pilots never practiced a steep dive. I don’t know anyone that has. Do you?

Mineta junk is pure stupid if used for some smoking 9/11 truth fantasy fest. Try posing the idiotic 9/11 truth junk about Mineta in a Mineta thread.

 

[Senenmut]

Physics!
Only those who have never fly heavy jets would push over and miss, since there is no way to practice a dive greater than 6 degrees clean without going supersonic.
I have a friend who died on a heavy jet clean when they pitched over past 6 degrees and further. The plane fell apart.

The fact Hani never practiced steep dives no heavy jet pilot has ever practiced clean; would make it something only an idiot would try or suggest. Balsamo is that idiot.


So you would just push over and expect what? The only thing you can do if you want a controllable plane where Hani found himself at 7,000 feet was to take the distance to descend; he choose a turn, it takes a few minutes and is so easy even a kid can fly the turn better than Hani did. Even the terrorist pilots never practiced a steep dive. I don’t know anyone that has. Do you?

Mineta junk is pure stupid if used for some smoking 9/11 truth fantasy fest. Try posing the idiotic 9/11 truth junk about Mineta in a Mineta thread.

im looking at the picture 911 guy posted. he climbed 1700 feet only to do a loop to decend 1700 feet. after that he then dives 10 miles out into the pentagon. so at 10 miles out, cheney states "of coarse the orders still stand", the pilot then does a loop to decend to his previous altitude, then 10 miles out again does he dive. what do u have against mineta's testimony?

 

[beachnut]

im looking at the picture 911 guy posted. he climbed 1700 feet only to do a loop to decend 1700 feet. after that he then dives 10 miles out into the pentagon. so at 10 miles out, cheney states "of coarse the orders still stand", the pilot then does a loop to decend to his previous altitude, then 10 miles out again does he dive. what do u have against mineta's testimony?

Have you studied the FDR to see why the plane climbed? What is your point? Why does it matter?

I tried to explain in a heavy jet (or any plane) during decent if you have excess energy, you can speed up, climb, or go faster! Hani climbed with his energy, then he started back down. So? What does it mean to you or 9/11 truth? I can answer that! Nothing.

The Mineta junk has nothing to do with 9/11 events. Only 9/11 truth has been dumb enough to come up with dirt dumb ideas of what the Mineta testimony has to do with their made up junk ideas.

Please explain in a Minteta thread why you have new stuff to prove something besides repeating stuff that is not valid to support 9/11 truth, and did not affect 9/11 one bit.

I have never heard a rational explanation on Mineta in one concise sentence or paragraph. Pure junk, and it is really a red flag to show someone has no clue about 9/11 when they mention Mineta with some stupid 9/11 truth conclusion, story, or idea. Please take your new earth shattering Mineta junk and post in a Mineta thread. Or join p4tf and they will agree with just about any wild idea you can manufacture by twisting and quote mining anything about 9/11.

The turn starts at 3.3 NM from the Pentagon (did I measure wrong). What are you talking about 10 miles? Are those NMs or SMs. Mineta junk is proof 9/11 truth has dirt dumb ideas manufactured from evidence deficient minds.

 

[Senenmut]

Mineta is mistaken, his time line is not possible. You are not the first person to bring this up, it has been discussed here plenty of times.

im guessing you are referring to the timeline of mineta stating that cheney said "of coarse the orders still stand" at 926??

 

[dtugg]

im guessing you are referring to the timeline of mineta stating that cheney said "of coarse the orders still stand" at 926??

Yes. He said he got to the bunker at 9:20. There is no way that happened.