Skeptoid Podcast: Organic Food

[brodski]

Why would you want to?

That's like food murder.

However, if you must, then crack it into a microwaveable egg-cup and pierce the yolk (else it'll a-splode). Cook it on a medium heat for blasts of 15 seconds for a max of about a minute and a half.

Then take it out and put it in the bin and boil one properly with a pan of water

I don't want to really,
I just remember an episode of "Tomorrow's world" where they showed a device that you could put an egg in, and then place in the microwave for a a few seconds and then get (apparently) the perfect soft boiled egg.
Like most things on "tomorrow's world" it doesn't seem to have materialized.

I was wondering if your knowledge of eggs extended to brief plugs of obscure inventions on early 90's BBC science shows.

 

[CFLarsen]

Why would you want to?
...
(else it'll a-splode).

That's why!

 

[brodski]

That's why!

no the "successfully" qualifier in my post was meant to show that I didn't want to cause an eggsplosion.

 

[CFLarsen]

no the "successfully" qualifier in my post was meant to show that I didn't want to cause an eggsplosion.

You're no fun.

 

[Loss Leader]

Agreed - I was referring specifically to eggs as there is a real misconception in the market that 'free range' means the chickens run around outdoors all day and sit in nice roomy perches at night to lay cosy eggs, when in fact the closest you'll get to that is from Organic standards. Sometimes 'free range' is little better than battery conditions.

The REAL question is, in a blind taste test, is there any damn difference? Myself, I think not, although there are differences in mouthfeel and colour. The only real way to get the best egg is to get the freshest, which usually means going to a local farm and buying today's. And little local farms which sell direct to the public are usually the organic cosy free-roaming bird type.

I can wax about eggs all day, it's one of my pet subjects, bizarrely. Ask me anything, from their chemical composition to storage and cooking methods. I'm like an eggcyclopedia.

My research indicates that, at least in the US, "organic" means that the chickens have access to the outdoors. As I learned in "Omnivore's Dilemma," that means that the chickens can have access for as little as 2 of their 7-week lives and that the vast majority of the chickens never venture outdoors even when given the oportunity.

Free range, on the other hand, means that they actually go and kick the chickens outside. However, this does not mean that the chickens are fed a different diet. They could be free-ranging around eating feed that is the same as that given to industrial chickens at worst and organic chickens at best.

The best way to raise chickens is not in monoculture. When the chickens are made part of an ecosystem and given access to grasses, bugs, larvae and other nasties, they are finally eating the diet that they evolved to. They are also breaking up cow manure, pooping all over the place and mixing the elements of the soil around to create better fertilizer for the grasses. Chickens raised in this manner (and their eggs) do taste appreciably different than those raised in monoculture.

But there is now no government standard one can look to in order to ensure that the chicken meets these requirements.

N.B. Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms is my primary source for the above.

 

[tkingdoll]

I don't want to really,
I just remember an episode of "Tomorrow's world" where they showed a device that you could put an egg in, and then place in the microwave for a a few seconds and then get (apparently) the perfect soft boiled egg.
Like most things on "tomorrow's world" it doesn't seem to have materialized.

I was wondering if your knowledge of eggs extended to brief plugs of obscure inventions on early 90's BBC science shows.

You know, that rings a bell. However, I can confirm that current technology doesn't allow for the creation of perfectly soft-boiled eggs in a microwave.

Damn those lazy scientists!

 

[brodski]

However, I can confirm that current technology doesn't allow for the creation of perfectly soft-boiled eggs in a microwave.

I bet it does, but the government covered it up!
Damn those evil conspiriton reptioids!

 

[tkingdoll]

My research indicates that, at least in the US, "organic" means that the chickens have access to the outdoors. As I learned in "Omnivore's Dilemma," that means that the chickens can have access for as little as 2 of their 7-week lives and that the vast majority of the chickens never venture outdoors even when given the oportunity.

Free range, on the other hand, means that they actually go and kick the chickens outside. However, this does not mean that the chickens are fed a different diet. They could be free-ranging around eating feed that is the same as that given to industrial chickens at worst and organic chickens at best.

The best way to raise chickens is not in monoculture. When the chickens are made part of an ecosystem and given access to grasses, bugs, larvae and other nasties, they are finally eating the diet that they evolved to. They are also breaking up cow manure, pooping all over the place and mixing the elements of the soil around to create better fertilizer for the grasses. Chickens raised in this manner (and their eggs) do taste appreciably different than those raised in monoculture.

But there is now no government standard one can look to in order to ensure that the chicken meets these requirements.

N.B. Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms is my primary source for the above.

Here's the difference in the UK (these are actually EU rules of course):

Barn

The barn system has a series of perches and feeders at different levels. The maximum stocking density is 9 birds per square metre and there must be at least 250cm square of litter area/bird. Perches for the birds must be installed to allow 15 cm of perch per hen. There must be at least 10cm of feeder/bird and at least one drinker/10 birds. There must be one nest for every 7 birds or 1 square metre of nest space for every 120 birds. Water and feeding troughs are raised so that the food is not scattered.

Free range
In free-range systems, the birds are housed as described in the barn system above. In addition birds must have continuous daytime access to open runs which are mainly covered with vegetation and with a maximum stocking density of 2,500 birds per hectare.

In all systems the birds must be inspected at least once a day. At the end of each laying period the respective houses are completely cleared and disinfected.

Organic

Organic systems are similar to those of free range however the guidelines for the birds and their feed are more stringent. The pullets must be raised by certified organic production methods from birth. The layers are required to have outdoor access all year round, or be fed sprouted grains for the period when indoors and all feed must be certified organic. No antibiotics or meat by-products are allowed in the feed and each bird is required to have 2 square feet of floor space.

The minimum requirements for organic farming in the UK are set out in the "Compendium of UK Organic Standards". In very brief terms housing conditions for organic animals must meet the animals behaviour needs as regards freedom of movement and comfort. Poultry must be reared in open-range conditions and cannot be kept in cages. The buildings must meet certain requirements set out in the Compendium. Poultry must have access to open air runs whenever the weather conditions permit and wherever possible must have such access for at least one third of their life. The land that the poultry range is on must be organic. These are the very basic husbandry requirements of organic poultry in the UK. Annex 1B Section 8 of the Compendium refers.


I didn't include the description for battery cause it's not very nice.

The MAJOR difference is that organic standards are enforced where the free-range aren't as much.

 

[rudar]

well, yeah. Chickens are, well, chicken. they're descended from Burmese Jungle Fowl, and big open spaces are really not their bag, baby. So a ``free range'' system that boots them out into an open yard whether they want it or not, is probably not going to be the best choice ever, from the chicken's point of view. Whether it's less bad or more bad than any specific cage is debatable, of course, I'm not saying the smallest battery cages out there are not also problematic.

 

[Darat]

well, yeah. Chickens are, well, chicken. they're descended from Burmese Jungle Fowl, and big open spaces are really not their bag, baby. So a ``free range'' system that boots them out into an open yard whether they want it or not, is probably not going to be the best choice ever, from the chicken's point of view. Whether it's less bad or more bad than any specific cage is debatable, of course, I'm not saying the smallest battery cages out there are not also problematic.

I have heard (so this is very much anecdotal) that many free-range birds never leave the indoor area so may on average be at least as densely reared as barn hens (since the free-range density includes both the indoor and outdoor space).

 

[Loss Leader]

I have heard (so this is very much anecdotal) that many free-range birds never leave the indoor area so may on average be at least as densely reared as barn hens (since the free-range density includes both the indoor and outdoor space).

This is true of many "organic" chickens in the US. "Organic" chickens must have access to the outdoors. Industrial-organic producers keep the chickens in enclosed coops (no cages) for the first five weeks of their lives. Then they open the doors for the last two weeks. Unfamiliar with the idea that there even is an outside, none of the chickens actually leave the coop.

This is fine with the Organic growers because, not able to use antibiotics, they don't really want the chickens to go outside and take the chance of becoming sick.

In that way, the Organic label is nothing but a marketing ploy. Still, if you are concerned about chickens being fed beef and pork by-products as well as (gulp) other chickens, Organic helps ensure that this does not happen.

 

[tkingdoll]

I have heard (so this is very much anecdotal) that many free-range birds never leave the indoor area so may on average be at least as densely reared as barn hens (since the free-range density includes both the indoor and outdoor space).

I too have heard this, which is one of the reasons I became interested in the difference between organic and free range eggs.

I'm lucky enough to live 10 miles from a farm at which you can get today's eggs and see the chickens at play. They have great lives - I'm not convinced 'happiness' transfers to the taste of an egg but their diet certainly does, and most importantly, the freshness. The fresher the egg, the better it tastes and the firmer the white will be. That's true of a battery egg or your best organic.

Loss Leader - it seems there's a huge difference between what organic is allowed to mean in the US and in the UK. Here it's the strictest legal term and woe betide anyone breaching guidelines.

Does USA organic food have an official organic certification stamp or sticker?

 

[Loss Leader]

Loss Leader - it seems there's a huge difference between what organic is allowed to mean in the US and in the UK. Here it's the strictest legal term and woe betide anyone breaching guidelines.

Does USA organic food have an official organic certification stamp or sticker?

The USDA has strict guidelines that must be met to consider meats, milk, eggs, whole and prepared food "organic." These strict guidelines still allow growing crops and keeping animals in monoculture and still allow animals to be fed diets they would not naturally encounter. It also allows a small amount of non-organic ingredients in prepared food. And, of course, none of it has anything to do with how workers are treated.

Some states have their own Organic certification. Of all the states, California is (IIRC) the strictest. So, some food will boast the seal of California rather than just the USDA.

Also, is anyone else having trouble deciding between puting the word organic in quotation marks or capitalizing it. I did both in this post and I have to tell you I don't feel good about it.

 

[Loss Leader]

Here it's the strictest legal term and woe betide anyone breaching guidelines.

Yeah, you don't want to anger the United States Department of Agriculture or in eight months they might send you a letter.