• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Simplistic investment question

Thank you all for your answers so far.

FYI: I have no interest in being a day-trader and the question in the OP was out of general interest.

I'm learning about financial markets because I want to invest my savings (Euro is looking a bit scary at the moment). But I would do this by identifying bigger trends in resources, energy and such and holding stock for a longer period.

I do not think that I will ever be competent enough to slug it out with professional traders, nor do I need the stress.
 
Thank you all for your answers so far.

FYI: I have no interest in being a day-trader and the question in the OP was out of general interest.

FWIW, most of the buy/sell recommendation are not aimed at day traders; they're generally not updated often enough to be of use to day traders. Most analysts don't generally update their recommendations more often than every few months, and those that do tend to be doing purely programmatic/technical recommendations (e.g. XYZ Corp just crossed its 200-day moving average, so it's being upgraded to "Buy.")

Technical indicators like that are, of course, widely regarded as being useless at the scale of the individual investor, and in many cases at any investment scale whatever. (See Malkiel again for details).

These recommendations are instead typically aimed at market-timers. One of the set of analysts I use (because it comes "for free" with my brokerage account), for example, gives me a "12-month target price," which -- it's not clearly explained -- means (I think) the price that the financial wizards think it will be selling for in a year's time. Which makes sense, because a lot of the people who buy these reports are interested in their profits on a year-to-year basis or quarter-to-quarter basis, no on how much they might make five or ten years down the line.

I'm learning about financial markets because I want to invest my savings (Euro is looking a bit scary at the moment). But I would do this by identifying bigger trends in resources, energy and such and holding stock for a longer period.

The problem with this approach, of course, is that trends in the industry may not translate to trends in the stock -- and in fact, Peter Lynch has argued strongly that they don't. If everyone expects the industry to do well, the industry as a whole will have a very high P/E ratio, and you'll be paying a lot of money for merely "average" growth -- or less, if the company management messes up. He prefers (preferred?) to look for companies that have found a way to grow in relatively stagnant industries, at the expense of their competitors. E.g. if a new company manages to move into the pantyhose industry with a product improvement (or business process improvement) it's likely to produce more stable and defensible growth than simply betting on "renewable energy" or whatever the buzzword of the week is.

I mean, yes, someone will make a fortune on renewable energy. But I'd stay away from that market unless you have a reasonable idea as to who it is.
 
The problem with this approach, of course, is that trends in the industry may not translate to trends in the stock -- and in fact, Peter Lynch has argued strongly that they don't. If everyone expects the industry to do well, the industry as a whole will have a very high P/E ratio, and you'll be paying a lot of money for merely "average" growth -- or less, if the company management messes up. He prefers (preferred?) to look for companies that have found a way to grow in relatively stagnant industries, at the expense of their competitors. E.g. if a new company manages to move into the pantyhose industry with a product improvement (or business process improvement) it's likely to produce more stable and defensible growth than simply betting on "renewable energy" or whatever the buzzword of the week is.

I mean, yes, someone will make a fortune on renewable energy. But I'd stay away from that market unless you have a reasonable idea as to who it is.

I have been advised not to buy specific stocks, but rather funds, leaving the specifics to the professionals.
 
On average, the stock market cannot grow more than the economy as a whole in the long run. On top of that, any profits and losses are a zero-sum game. But there is a lot of money to be made from suckers in that zero-sum game. If you don't understand this, it probably means you're one of the suckers.

If you treat it like people trying to win a lottery, rather than investing to receive a steady dividend, yes.
 
I have been advised not to buy specific stocks, but rather funds, leaving the specifics to the professionals.

Well, advice is advice, but I find that particular advice to be rather,.... questionable.

Actively managed funds tend to underperform the market, for a number of reasons. Actively managed sector funds tend to underperform the market by an even larger extent, because the management fees tend to be so much higher. If you want to identify "bigger trends in resources," and then invest in a resource-specific sector fund (e.g. a "basic materials" fund or a "strategic metals" fund or a "alternative energy" fund), you're likely to end up paying several points in "management fees" and whatnot that you'd not pay for a straight-up S&P 500 index fund.
 
If you treat it like people trying to win a lottery, rather than investing to receive a steady dividend, yes.

Well a dividend is one aspect, but a company that holds onto those earnings and uses it for future growth have value as well. By owning a share of that company you still own a share of the money they have, which is why one of the strategies (no longer viable with computers searching such things out) mentioned earlier is to buy companies whose cash exceeded their market capitalization.
 
I have been advised not to buy specific stocks, but rather funds, leaving the specifics to the professionals.
I strongly advise reading Bogle and Malkiel. After that perhaps Damadoran's Investment Fables, where he tackles a lot of these myths/ideas, looks at the actual data, and shows them to be largely useless. As DrKitten has pointed out, everyone has a computer, and can run simple screens in seconds. Round trip trading time is on the order of microseconds these days (not milliseconds), and wall street computers are now reading news items and trading on them. The idea that you are going to think 'hmm, looks like oil is going to go up', do your research over the next few weeks, wander over to the computer, find some funds, mail your check in, get the check to clear and the account set up (which will determine your buy date and price), and somehow have bought in before the rest of the world had that same thought and bid up prices to where returns will be average, is, well, naive. I don't mean that meanly. But sector based funds do not beat the market as a whole, and you are the last person thinking of the idea. If you want to buy and make above average returns, you have to be one of the few and first thinking of the idea.

As for not picking stocks, but picking funds, how on earth do you do that? At least the SEC requires detailed financial disclosure for companies, which gives you a reasonable chance to at least try to access it (I know, you are not American, and thus not bound by the SEC unless buying American stocks. I'm giving what I know about my market - I'm sure you have similar rules in yours). But a fund? Ya, they are required to report what they have in their portfolio, but that is about it. I can think of a very few fund managers that actually disclose enough that I would feel comfortable trusting my future with them - and one of them isn't taking money (Buffett).


There was perhaps a confusion I introduced above, that stevea bristled over. When I talked about 'pros' - that was in the sense of "professionals" - paid to do this full time. It was not in the sense of "proficient".

With that in mind, let's look at how funds are formed. It's nice to think of a MF company executives sitting around, saying "how can we best make money for our clients? Joe, any ideas?

joe: well, gold is overpriced, so let's not open a gold fund now. OTOH, ball bearings are dead, dead, dead, and due for a massive rebound. Let's start a ball bearing fund!

Make it so!"

Err, no. This is how the conversation goes:

"Cash flow is tight. How can we get a lot of new money flowing. Your job is on the line if you don't meet this nearly impossible target of 20% growth. Btw, we are firing 25% of staff this year.

joe: oh, **** me. Every idiot in the world is throwing their money at gold, and prices are insane. Let's get a piece of that action while the fools still have money left and before it all collapses.

Excellent.

joe: and let's close down our precious metal fund, which is very underpriced right now, and tell all of those customers we are automatically transferring their funds into this new gold fund.

I think you have a future in this company, Joe."

Okay, probably those last few sentences are not legal (however, my ****** 401k fund does that to me all the time - sells the funds poised to take advantage of low prices in the market, and transfers the money to some fund priced at its 52 week high) , but you get the idea. Mutual fund companies create specialized funds not because they think they are a great investment for the client, but because clients are asking for specialized funds, and why let a competitor take that money. If it's a crap idea, they throw some junior member on to manage it. If you get lucky they might throw a rising star on it, but you shouldn't be investing on the basis of getting lucky.

In any case the prospectus of these companies are necessarily narrow, and it ties the hands of the manager - they can't decide "hmm, best to get out of gold and go into silver" if it is a gold fund. If money comes in or goes out, they have to buy or sell at prices they don't consider good, creating all kinds of tax events for you (again, American bias here). You are at their mercy, and the mercy of your fellow investors. A lot of people sell the fund at what they perceive as a high? You pay tons of taxes this year. A lot of people get skittish and bail at a low point? The fund sells low, you have some taxes to pay, and what you really wanted to have happen is the fund to be buying gold when it was cheap, not selling it. Etc.

So, the underlying assumption of "I'll just buy a fund to manage it" assumes
1) you are unable to judge if a company is competent, despite it reporting tons of details
2) you are able to judge if a fund manager is competent, despite essentially no reporting or visibility.
3) you are unable to judge if a company's future is bright.
4) you are able to judge if a fund's future is bright, AND the behavior of all of your fellow investors (since their behavior influences the performance of the fund).

Those don't strike me as reasonable assumptions. Data backs me up - if you look at the performance of individuals purchasing mutual funds they tend to underperform. We could give you some rules to help avoid that - people tend to buy into highly performing funds, and sell underperforming ones, which is just the opposite of buy low, sell high, etc. But you are coming in at such a disadvantage, no visibility, an assumption that you are unable to make financial decisions wrt stocks, yet somehow also able to make financial decisions wrt funds.

Bogle-Malkiel-Damadoran. If, after that, you decide you can still beat the game, we can point you to appropriate reading (but Bogle/Malkiel/Damadoran will point you to the good reading as well).
 
Last edited:
Very informative. I wanted to start a thread on the subject of investing, but this gives me enough to research.

I'll start by ordering the books.

Thanks for the input.
 
I should point out that sector investing is not as simple as saying "hmm, looks like oil is going up, I should buy into this sector". Lots of time oil going up can spell extra profits for an oil company. But, the real measure is things like the crack spread - what does it cost to turn crude into refined. That spread can fall when prices go up, for several reasons. First, higher oil prices mean higher NG prices (often), and the refiners use NG to do the crack. Second, higher prices for oil means things like shale extraction becomes profitable, so demand for refineries is higher, so they can charge more. More usage means more break downs, which means reduced supply of refineries, which means higher prices. Etc. That's just one tiny aspect of the oil world (where I happen to concentrate my investing, btw). So, you really need to understand the industry - the tax structures, full costs, what things are cyclical, etc., so you can understand the impact of any given action. It ain't - oil up, stock prices up. I have a copy of Findamentals of Oil & Gass Accounting on my bookshelf - a $100, 750 page tome intended for CPAs and such, just as one small piece of data I need to understand the sector. (to be fair tax accounting in O&G is somewhat unique, and it very much affects P&L depending on what the company is doing and how they have structured their accounting).

I made this mistake early in my investing "career". I write software, and reasoned that since I worked with computers and electronics every day, I should invest in that, since I'd surely see trends before the average person.

The problem? It's not trends in purchases that matter, but financial trends vis-a-vis the companies that matter. Sure, everybody in the world was buying a computer, and sales were increasing every year. Yay, right? No, because there was massive competition and companies were making just pennies on a full computer, if they were lucky. Massive sales, technical innovation, and the average company was barely hanging on or failing.

Another example - cars were huge at the turn of the 20th century. However, there were over 100 automobile companies - and just about every one failed. Ford is still around, sort of. If you invested in automobiles, you were just about guaranteed to fail. Once again, a great business, tons of money, growth, all that, yet the individual investor was all but guaranteed to fail.

So, don't confuse the ability to say "duct tape is going to be hot in the next 18 months" to the ability to identify it as the place to invest. It might be. It might not be. You need to understand the business situation pretty well, in which case, once again, why are you paying a professional to manage it for you?
 
Well a dividend is one aspect, but a company that holds onto those earnings and uses it for future growth have value as well. By owning a share of that company you still own a share of the money they have, which is why one of the strategies (no longer viable with computers searching such things out) mentioned earlier is to buy companies whose cash exceeded their market capitalization.

I'm not sure what you mean, I bought stock in one yesterday. Of course, at the rate they are burning cash, it will not exceed market cap for long.
 
I should point out that sector investing is not as simple as saying "hmm, looks like oil is going up, I should buy into this sector". Lots of time oil going up can spell extra profits for an oil company. But, the real measure is things like the crack spread - what does it cost to turn crude into refined. That spread can fall when prices go up, for several reasons. First, higher oil prices mean higher NG prices (often), and the refiners use NG to do the crack. Second, higher prices for oil means things like shale extraction becomes profitable, so demand for refineries is higher, so they can charge more. More usage means more break downs, which means reduced supply of refineries, which means higher prices. Etc. That's just one tiny aspect of the oil world (where I happen to concentrate my investing, btw). So, you really need to understand the industry - the tax structures, full costs, what things are cyclical, etc., so you can understand the impact of any given action. It ain't - oil up, stock prices up. I have a copy of Findamentals of Oil & Gass Accounting on my bookshelf - a $100, 750 page tome intended for CPAs and such, just as one small piece of data I need to understand the sector. (to be fair tax accounting in O&G is somewhat unique, and it very much affects P&L depending on what the company is doing and how they have structured their accounting).

I made this mistake early in my investing "career". I write software, and reasoned that since I worked with computers and electronics every day, I should invest in that, since I'd surely see trends before the average person.

The problem? It's not trends in purchases that matter, but financial trends vis-a-vis the companies that matter. Sure, everybody in the world was buying a computer, and sales were increasing every year. Yay, right? No, because there was massive competition and companies were making just pennies on a full computer, if they were lucky. Massive sales, technical innovation, and the average company was barely hanging on or failing.

Another example - cars were huge at the turn of the 20th century. However, there were over 100 automobile companies - and just about every one failed. Ford is still around, sort of. If you invested in automobiles, you were just about guaranteed to fail. Once again, a great business, tons of money, growth, all that, yet the individual investor was all but guaranteed to fail.

So, don't confuse the ability to say "duct tape is going to be hot in the next 18 months" to the ability to identify it as the place to invest. It might be. It might not be. You need to understand the business situation pretty well, in which case, once again, why are you paying a professional to manage it for you?

I did invest in exactly the manner you described above, on exactly that logic.

I got wind of Peak Oil in 2005, and bought into energy, renewable energy, gold and uranium. Most via funds.

My timing was perfect and for a year I felt like some kind of investment genius. Then the whole thing went south and so did my nerves.*

I got out at break-even point and should consider myself lucky.

Since then I haven't touched stocks, but I'm looking to carefully start again. This time not as a cocky idiot.

* Because I realised that I didn't have any grip on the mechanisms I was dealing with. just blanket, crude trend watching.
Now I realise that any idiot can read the Economist and go 'Nano technology is the wave of the future, man'.
Also my conclusions were not mirrored in stock value at all.

The "good" side: I think the vast majority of small investors think like I thought and hence are the "donors" to the zero-sum game.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom