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Simple climate change refutation challenge

Oh, oh..now Pipirr brought up impact factor and its going to make a lot of heads explode. Papers discussing climate change are regularly published in PNAS, Science and Nature. All journals with impact factore >10. Lohele's paper, for example, was published in "Energy and Environment". A journal with an impact factor near Zero. If we invoke a minimum impact factor for publication discussion, most papers submitted by the contrarians would disappear.
Few contrarian papers get published in reputable science journals. The quality is simply too low. This why they appear in journals that are bottom of the barrel. E&E was set up specifically for this purpose.
 
Few contrarian papers get published in reputable science journals. The quality is simply too low. This why they appear in journals that are bottom of the barrel. E&E was set up specifically for this purpose.

(Yawn). Unsupportable babble, of course.

A quick check shows that.

But it's a good sound bite you have there. Is it designed for just stupid people to fall for or most eveybody?
 
(Yawn). Unsupportable babble, of course.

A quick check shows that.
Which bit? Both? Where do most contrarian papers appear, and are you claiming that E&E was set up for some other reason?

But it's a good sound bite you have there. Is it designed for just stupid people to fall for or most eveybody?
Designed? Not really, it just seemed obvious ;)
 
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Can you show the quick check?

Sure. It had three parts

1. A check of the articles on the 500 scientists list you were provided.
2. A check of journals by the famed "400 scientists who refute global warming"
3. A check of journals for an extensive bibliography at Senator Inhofe's website.

Not that I have anything against E&E, mind you.

Or closer to home, let's consider David Rodale's post on page 11 of this thread. The articles are from Science, Journal of Climate, and Geophysical Research Letters. So what is there to complain about in respect to the "quality of journals" that "contrarians" (your imagination) are publishing in?
 
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Sure. It had three parts

1. A check of the articles on the 500 scientists list you were provided.
2. A check of journals by the famed "400 scientists who refute global warming"
3. A check of journals for an extensive bibliography at Senator Inhofe's website.

Not that I have anything against E&E, mind you.

Or closer to home, let's consider David Rodale's post on page 11 of this thread. The articles are from Science, Journal of Climate, and Geophysical Research Letters. So what is there to complain about in respect to the "quality of journals" that "contrarians" (your imagination) are publishing in?
What had 3 parts?
 
Tell us, and then support your assertion with .....

Oh, let's say article counts by journal.
Fortunately a few people have analysed papers in the ISI DB. Benny Pesier found that of the 1117 abstracts relating to global climate change, 34 reject the AGW consensus. Let's ignore the fact the most of the 34 were incorrectly identified and accept that figure. 34/1117 is about 3% and I'd say that both the number and %age are very few.

With such a small number, I don't see that breakdown by journal will serve any purpose.
 
Originally Posted by mhaze
Sure. It had three parts

1. A check of the articles on the 500 scientists list you were provided.
2. A check of journals by the famed "400 scientists who refute global warming"
3. A check of journals for an extensive bibliography at Senator Inhofe's website.

Not that I have anything against E&E, mind you.

Or closer to home, let's consider David Rodale's post on page 11 of this thread. The articles are from Science, Journal of Climate, and Geophysical Research Letters. So what is there to complain about in respect to the "quality of journals" that "contrarians" (your imagination) are publishing in?​
What had 3 parts?


The quick check of articles, to show that they were not in "low quality journals" so that we could move this conversation along to another level of ducking and dodging and moving of the goalposts, seemingly all being done by you and Alric.

So what is next, umm,,,, you've lost "few skeptical scientists", "few published articles", then went to "low quality journals", lost that, ...

Gee, next you could claim that the mass of articles that refute AGW theory really does not do that and the enumerated scientists are not really scientists or did not really say that. It'd be a lot easier to do that by going Oerkes/Peiser/Shulte route since then you would not have to actually go down the list and discuss each article and how they do or do not prove or disprove one or another aspect of AGW theory.

Wanna go back to discussing the hockey stick? No? Did the impact of the four articles David Rodale brought into the discussion seem a bit obscure?
 
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The quick check of articles, to show that they were not in "low quality journals" so that we could move this conversation along to another level of ducking and dodging and moving of the goalposts, seemingly all being done by you and Alric.
You have some nerve. It is you who keeps moving the goalposts. You make a claim,we challenge it, and then you move on.

So what is next, umm,,,, you've lost "few skeptical scientists", "few published articles", then went to "low quality journals", lost that, ...
Another tactic you have been caught using before: claiming a non-existent victory. We have barely started on this.

Gee, next you could claim that the mass of articles that refute AGW theory really does not do that and the enumerated scientists are not really scientists or did not really say that. It'd be a lot easier to do that by going Oerkes/Peiser/Shulte route since then you would not have to actually go down the list and discuss each article and how they do or do not prove or disprove one or another aspect of AGW theory.
Funny, I thought Peiser was on your "side". Let's go down that list.

Wanna go back to discussing the hockey stick? No? Did the impact of the four articles David Rodale brought into the discussion seem a bit obscure?
Sure, and we can then go back to the weight of peer-reviewed papers supporting it.
 
Gee, next you could claim that the mass of articles that refute AGW theory really does not do that and the enumerated scientists are not really scientists or did not really say that. It'd be a lot easier to do that by going Oerkes/Peiser/Shulte route since then you would not have to actually go down the list and discuss each article and how they do or do not prove or disprove one or another aspect of AGW theory.
Hold on a minute. You asked for numbers and I gave you one from a sceptic source.

Goalposts?
 
Okay, then, if you want to talk about "low quality journals", "few skeptical scientists", yada-yada-yada, then make your best case. I was just suggesting we could move on from that subject, since that argument isn't going to go anywhere.

I gotta idea we might be seeing Lucifuge's list pop up (hint hint!)
 
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Okay, then, if you want to talk about "low quality journals", "few skeptical scientists", yada-yada-yada, then make your best case. I was just suggesting we could move on from that subject, since that argument isn't going to go anywhere.

I gotta idea we might be seeing Lucifuge's list pop up (hint hint!)

Actually, I think it is a much more interesting observation the [FONT=Times New Roman, Ms Serif]Stefan-Boltzmann equation is not mentioned once in IPCC AR4, at least not that I could find.

Does anyone know why? It's a very simple answer, even simpler than whether water droplets freezing from the inside out or the outside in.

[/FONT]
 
Actually, I think it is a much more interesting observation the [FONT=Times New Roman, Ms Serif]Stefan-Boltzmann equation is not mentioned once in IPCC AR4, at least not that I could find.

Does anyone know why? It's a very simple answer, even simpler than whether water droplets freezing from the inside out or the outside in.

[/FONT]

Because the Stefan-Boltzmann equation (or the implications thereof) are not safe for the children of climate science?:D

As for your other question I'm going for "outside in" based on this article.

Title:
Contact Nucleation Linked to `Evaporation Freezing' Authors:
Shaw, R. A.; Durant, A. Affiliation:
AA(Department of Physics, Michigan Technological University, 1400 Townsend Drive, Houghton, MI 49931 United States ; rashaw@mtu.edu), AB(Department of Physics, Michigan Technological University, 1400 Townsend Drive, Houghton, MI 49931 United States ; Geological Engineering and Sciences, Michigan Technological University, 1400 Townsend Drive, Houghton, MI 49931 United States ; ajdurant@mtu.edu) Publication:
American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2005, abstract #A23C-0970 Publication Date:
12/2005 Origin:
AGU AGU Keywords:
0305 Aerosols and particles (0345, 4801, 4906), 0320 Cloud physics and chemistry, 4801 Aerosols (0305, 4906), 4906 Aerosols (0305, 4801) Abstract Copyright:
(c) 2005: American Geophysical Union Bibliographic Code:
2005AGUFM.A23C0970S Abstract

Ice formation in atmospheric clouds plays a fundamental role in precipitation and cloud radiative properties. Contact nucleation, an important but poorly understood heterogeneous nucleation pathway, defines the freezing of a supercooled cloud drop on contact with an ice-forming nucleus (IN), traditionally from the outside of the drop. In recent work it was shown that heterogeneous ice nucleation rates are enhanced by a form of `surface crystallization'. Here we describe additional experiments and consider the implications for contact nucleation and its relevance to ice nucleation in atmospheric clouds. Our observations suggest that the notion of contact nucleation should be generalized to include surface crystallization from particles contacting a supercooled drop from the inside out, as well as from the outside in. Specifically, (1) we challenge the existing hypothesized mechanisms for contact nucleation in light of the laboratory observations; (2) we present laboratory evidence for enhanced ice nucleation during drop evaporation; and (3) we hypothesize that this more general picture of contact nucleation can result in `evaporation freezing' in atmospheric clouds. Our observations are not consistent with the three leading hypotheses for contact nucleation which include partial solubility of the IN, incomplete adsorption upon initial contact with water, and mechanical disturbance of the water-air interface upon contact: All of these mechanisms are related in some way to the transient nature of contact between a dry IN and a supercooled water drop, which is not present in our experiments. The generalized view of contact nucleation has implications for atmospheric ice formation. For example, there are abundant observations of enhanced ice formation in regions where cloud droplets are evaporating in cumuliform, stratiform, and wave clouds, and it has been speculated that contact nucleation may be responsible for evaporation freezing. Our results lead to the hypothesis that the freezing temperature of an evaporating drop will suddenly increase once the drop surface contacts an immersed IN. This mechanism for evaporation freezing is therefore a plausible explanation for observations of high ice concentrations associated with cloud dilution and droplet evaporation.
 
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Because the Stefan-Boltzmann equation (or the implications thereof) are not safe for the children of climate science?:D

As for your other question I'm going for "outside in" based on this article.

Title:
Contact Nucleation Linked to `Evaporation Freezing' Authors:
Shaw, R. A.; Durant, A. Affiliation:
AA(Department of Physics, Michigan Technological University, 1400 Townsend Drive, Houghton, MI 49931 United States ; rashaw@mtu.edu), AB(Department of Physics, Michigan Technological University, 1400 Townsend Drive, Houghton, MI 49931 United States ; Geological Engineering and Sciences, Michigan Technological University, 1400 Townsend Drive, Houghton, MI 49931 United States ; ajdurant@mtu.edu) Publication:
American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2005, abstract #A23C-0970 Publication Date:
12/2005 Origin:
AGU AGU Keywords:
0305 Aerosols and particles (0345, 4801, 4906), 0320 Cloud physics and chemistry, 4801 Aerosols (0305, 4906), 4906 Aerosols (0305, 4801) Abstract Copyright:
(c) 2005: American Geophysical Union Bibliographic Code:
2005AGUFM.A23C0970S Abstract

Ice formation in atmospheric clouds plays a fundamental role in precipitation and cloud radiative properties. Contact nucleation, an important but poorly understood heterogeneous nucleation pathway, defines the freezing of a supercooled cloud drop on contact with an ice-forming nucleus (IN), traditionally from the outside of the drop. In recent work it was shown that heterogeneous ice nucleation rates are enhanced by a form of `surface crystallization'. Here we describe additional experiments and consider the implications for contact nucleation and its relevance to ice nucleation in atmospheric clouds. Our observations suggest that the notion of contact nucleation should be generalized to include surface crystallization from particles contacting a supercooled drop from the inside out, as well as from the outside in. Specifically, (1) we challenge the existing hypothesized mechanisms for contact nucleation in light of the laboratory observations; (2) we present laboratory evidence for enhanced ice nucleation during drop evaporation; and (3) we hypothesize that this more general picture of contact nucleation can result in `evaporation freezing' in atmospheric clouds. Our observations are not consistent with the three leading hypotheses for contact nucleation which include partial solubility of the IN, incomplete adsorption upon initial contact with water, and mechanical disturbance of the water-air interface upon contact: All of these mechanisms are related in some way to the transient nature of contact between a dry IN and a supercooled water drop, which is not present in our experiments. The generalized view of contact nucleation has implications for atmospheric ice formation. For example, there are abundant observations of enhanced ice formation in regions where cloud droplets are evaporating in cumuliform, stratiform, and wave clouds, and it has been speculated that contact nucleation may be responsible for evaporation freezing. Our results lead to the hypothesis that the freezing temperature of an evaporating drop will suddenly increase once the drop surface contacts an immersed IN. This mechanism for evaporation freezing is therefore a plausible explanation for observations of high ice concentrations associated with cloud dilution and droplet evaporation.

My my. Correct on both counts. Now consider this:

1) What was the consensus for ~60 years concerning water droplets freezing from the inside out or the outside in? Surely such a simple law of thermodynamics couldn't have been overlooked?

2) What implication specifically does Stefan-Boltzmann have with respect to IPCC omitting it from AR4?
 
2) What implication specifically does Stefan-Boltzmann have with respect to IPCC omitting it from AR4?

I am sure this paper, like all others sited by you and mhaze completely demolishes anthropogenic climate change. Even though this is nowhere discussed or suggested by the authors themselves.
 
My my. Correct on both counts. Now consider this:

1) What was the consensus for ~60 years concerning water droplets freezing from the inside out or the outside in? Surely such a simple law of thermodynamics couldn't have been overlooked?

2) What implication specifically does Stefan-Boltzmann have with respect to IPCC omitting it from AR4?

Umm, I've been distracted a bit but here is the distraction.

3) What is the effect of Wentz 2007, your quoted paper "How much rain will global warming bring" on the 500,000 cubic km of water that falls as precip each year. A plus or minus 5% change in that 500,000 cubic km would have what effect on global sea level?

Answer: About plus or minus 50 mm.
 
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