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Simple climate change refutation challenge

The OP is about global average temperatures. How is this relevant?

Thanks. Because of the misdirections used by contrarians. You can always find a place where locally the measurements will match your convictions. That is why the challenge includes:

1. Global temperatures.
2. Absolute number, or as simple as possible.
3. Must include pre-industrial levels
4. Peer reviewed.

Otherwise it would not be comparable. As everything else that has been posed as a challenge in this thread.
 
The OP is about global average temperatures. How is this relevant?

For global average temps to go up, byway of the greenhouse effect, as you say is the case, that mid troposphere hot spot is where it all starts.

FSOL, chart is from IPCC.
 
Err..those two statements are entirely compatible... Read them again.

For those two statements to agree then you can draw one of these conclusions:

1) They are sensationalising the CO2 effect since it started rising with the industrial revolution which started circa 1750.

2) Either there was no data that confirms a temperature rise between 1750 and 1908 outside error ranges even though it states CO2 did rise.

3) Our two sets of data can tighten our error ranges so we don't quote the same temperature rise range for two different date ranges.

All I'm saying is this sort of reporting reduces confidence in the conclusions.
 
Then there is that pesky Little Ice Age.

Let's examine that.

1. It was cold during the Little Ice Age.
2. We were in a Little Ice Age.
3. We an now coming out of a Little Ice Age.

Now, what might temperatures be doing? Going up or down?
 
Then there is that pesky Little Ice Age.

Let's examine that.

1. It was cold during the Little Ice Age.
2. We were in a Little Ice Age.
3. We an now coming out of a Little Ice Age.

Now, what might temperatures be doing? Going up or down?
For how long would we be coming out of the LIA? Didn't that stop in the 1890s? 1940s?

But wait, it's not getting warmer anyway: the graphs are all based on doctored data from poorly sited stations, aren't they?
 
Then there is that pesky Little Ice Age.

Let's examine that.

1. It was cold during the Little Ice Age.
2. We were in a Little Ice Age.
3. We an now coming out of a Little Ice Age.

Now, what might temperatures be doing? Going up or down?

You guys are thinking about this issue backwards. Its not the temperature variation and myriad natural observations (like accelerated glacier melting) by themselves that worry scientists, What worries scientists is the increase in temperature PLUS the hockey puck increase in greenhouse gases, mainly C02.

If you were to go to the Dr and he showed you a graph like this:

co2_data_mlo.png


and he told you it was your blood pressure or sodium blood levels and although you feel fine now you should take medication; would you tell him you feel fine and he is wrong?
 
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You guys are thinking about this issue backwards. Its not the temperature variation and myriad natural observations (like accelerated glacier melting) by themselves that worry scientists, What worries scientists is the increase in temperature PLUS the hockey puck increase in greenhouse gases, mainly C02.

If you were to go to the Dr and he showed you a graph like this:

[qimg]http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ccgg/trends/co2_data_mlo.png[/qimg]

and he told you it was your blood pressure or sodium blood levels and although you feel fine now you should take medication; would you tell him you feel fine and he is wrong?
Do you believe in the hockey stick, then?
 
The hockey stick is a measurement! With regards to C02 there is no question. Temperature is open to interpretation in historical context but it certainly follows the C02 measurement currently.
 
Well, a simple explanation of the hockey stick would be that for the last 1000 or 2000 years, temperature variations were essentially random noise with no major variations due to natural causes. Natural variation of temperature then may be figured as statistical noise and a measure taken of it and used to determine what is outside those bounds. That's the blade of the stick. The puck would show that recently, temperatures became alarmingly out of bounds with respect to historical noise, and thus must be due to man's influence, specifically CO2. The "historically unprecedented recent temperature rise" is projected to continue for a long time.

Is that pretty much what you think has and is happened?
 
No. That temperature is rising along with measured unprecedented levels of a measured greenhouse gas. Do you have a point?
 
Well, a simple explanation of the hockey stick would be that for the last 1000 or 2000 years, temperature variations were essentially random noise with no major variations due to natural causes. Natural variation of temperature then may be figured as statistical noise and a measure taken of it and used to determine what is outside those bounds. That's the blade of the stick. The puck would show that recently, temperatures became alarmingly out of bounds with respect to historical noise, and thus must be due to man's influence, specifically CO2. The "historically unprecedented recent temperature rise" is projected to continue for a long time.

Is that pretty much what you think has and is happened?

Talking about the noise, if you look at the temperature cusum for Central England:

1449447ad7aa11c333.png


You can see that the recorded temperature does seem to be rising and for longer than any period since about 1690. Obviously this can't be used on its own as evidence for global warming, but it does show that there has been warming in England starting about 1900, that had been unprecedented in the previous 200 years, and more extreme warming starting in the 1970's.

At the very least, we can observe that something changed to increase the typical average temperature in England over this time.

If this were an industrial process that I was monotoring, I would be concerned.


Full post below:

Two questions about your graphs:

Firstly: Why are you plotting rates of change in CO2 concentration and temperature?

Plotting rates of change will exaggerate noise in a signal, especially if there are known oscillations. El Niño, and La Nina affect affect the distribution of temperature, so you would expect to see a quasiperiodic fluctuation in the rate of change of temperature, with a roughly biannual frequency.

If you want to remove noise, you integrate the signal, not differentiate it.


Secondly: Why are you only plotting a ten-year trend which is less than a single sunspot cycle, which also affects the weather?

I'll give an examople of what I mean by integration:

Here is the average temperature in central England, as it is the longest running set of direct temperature measurements.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad7af021290.png[/qimg]

It looks quite noisy, but you might notice that there are fewer low temperatures towards the end of the twentieth century.

However there is a very nice technique in statistical process control, called the cusum. Here is a somewhat simplified discussion:

You can take the long term average (mean) of the data, and the difference of each point from this LTA, then you can add all these difference up and plot how the difference changes with time. If a region is flat, it is running at the LTA; if climbing, it is running above; if falling, it is running below.

Over the entire dataset, the final cusum value will be zero as the total sum above the mean will be equal to the total sum below. If a parameter is increasing, then at the beginning, the data will be below the LTA, so the cusum will fall, then it will pass through the LA, and be roughly flat, and then it will be running above the LTA, so will increase, and the converse for a decreasing process. If the cusum keps crossing the zero point, then there is no trend.

Changes in gradient indicate a change in the process mean.


Here is the cusum for the same data as before:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad7aa11c333.png[/qimg]

Now there is no reason to choose the LTA as the "target" value, it is just that this will always add up to zero.

If you choose a different target value, you can see whether the process was ever running at this particular value

Here is an example:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad7aa1b774e.png[/qimg]

You can see that the rtemperatures were running about 0.092°C below the historic LTA for most of the 19th century, before increasing around 1900.

You can also see that a few years after starting, there was a cooler period that ended around about 1700. There is a slight increase in gradient sometime in the 20th century, which is hard to see. However it is clearer on an expanded scale, and with a different target:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad80ec930f4.png[/qimg]

There was a change between 1960 and 1970, and the average temperature is now running about 0.8°C above the historic LTA, and seems to be increasing again...

The point about this is that, although the data looks noisy, integrating this data can still show trends. Differentiating the raw data will highlight noise.

ETA: Of course an oscillating process will also repetedly cross the zero line
 
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I think I understand the left hand legend, but can you confirm what it says? A bit blurred.

Also, I've read that lighthouse data off of the coast of Britian for the last several hundred years showed no significant warming or cooling.

Side note: If a "skeptic" produced an argument yours the immediate outcries would be "oh that's just regional - you have to look at global"!;)
 
"Cumulative sum less long term average", maybe slightly misleading, as I couldn't think of a concise term for the y-axis; below is what I actually did. Part ogf my job in deeveloping new transistors involves looking at yields, and I find the cusum very good at spotting turning points and trends; out of interest I wondered what would I would see if I applied some simple, SPC analysis tools to climate data.

You can take the long term average (mean) of the data, and the difference of each point from this LTA, then you can add all these difference up and plot how the difference changes with time. If a region is flat, it is running at the LTA; if climbing, it is running above; if falling, it is running below.

Over the entire dataset, the final cusum value will be zero as the total sum above the mean will be equal to the total sum below. If a parameter is increasing, then at the beginning, the data will be below the LTA, so the cusum will fall, then it will pass through the LA, and be roughly flat, and then it will be running above the LTA, so will increase, and the converse for a decreasing process. If the cusum keps crossing the zero point, then there is no trend.

Changes in gradient indicate a change in the process mean.​

Also, I've read that lighthouse data off of the coast of Britian for the last several hundred years showed no significant warming or cooling.

Side note: If a "skeptic" produced an argument yours the immediate outcries would be "oh that's just regional - you have to look at global"!

I downloaded the text file in mid 2006, from the met office website (meto.gov.uk), but don't know about the lighthouse data.

I implicitally acknowledged your second point, as I did restrict it to evidence of warming in England...

You can see that the recorded temperature does seem to be rising and for longer than any period since about 1690. Obviously this can't be used on its own as evidence for global warming, but it does show that there has been warming in England starting about 1900, that had been unprecedented in the previous 200 years, and more extreme warming starting in the 1970's.

At the very least, we can observe that something changed to increase the typical average temperature in England over this time.
 
ETA, if you have any lighthouse data I would be interested in seeing it, and doing the same cusum on it...
 
The hockey stick is a measurement! With regards to C02 there is no question. Temperature is open to interpretation in historical context but it certainly follows the C02 measurement currently.



Which bring us right back to my point which you are ignoring.

Things appearing to go up together or down together is not evidence of anything. Spurioud correlation, spurious correlation. You must make sure you are not picking a spurious correlation.

Show the statistics.
 
Which bring us right back to my point which you are ignoring.

Things appearing to go up together or down together is not evidence of anything. Spurioud correlation, spurious correlation. You must make sure you are not picking a spurious correlation.

Show the statistics.

I've explained this before. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. If its concentration goes up, temperature must too. Its a physical property of CO2.
 
Side note: If a "skeptic" produced an argument yours the immediate outcries would be "oh that's just regional - you have to look at global"!;)

Actually because he clearly stated where the data was from and that it couldn't say anything about global temperature changes I don't think any reasonable person would have a problem with his post.
 
I've explained this before. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. If its concentration goes up, temperature must too. Its a physical property of CO2.
It is a proven property, but does it translate to a global scale at such low concentrations as .038%? We can't actually run this experiment against a control. Does anyone know what the largest scale experiment has been?
 
Yes. C02 absorbs in the infrared and that property is actually a way to measure it. Just like other greenhouse gases infrared absorption is linear and dependent on concentration.
 

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