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Shuttle Radar

First I know nothing about this but that never stopped me before...

I Know that there are topographical uses for radar from space, I think that most object tracking is done from earth.

:)
 
King of the Americas said:
How much capability do Shuttle radar systems have, in identifing orbital debris size, speed, and location?
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It's just a piece of space junk. Get over it.

There's lots of it up there. No need to get all War of the Worlds or Mars Attacks over a hunk of space junk.
 
Psiload said:
It's just a piece of space junk. Get over it.

There's lots of it up there. No need to get all War of the Worlds or Mars Attacks over a hunk of space junk.
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You kind of have to worry about space junk, especially if there is a significant velocity differential.
 
uruk said:
You kind of have to worry about space junk, especially if there is a significant velocity differential.
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The King here is more worried along the lines of photon torpedos than velocity differentials.
 
Psiload said:
The King here is more worried along the lines of photon torpedos than velocity differentials.
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Oh, I see. my guess is; if an object reflects radar then it should be able to be tracked.

I think the shuttle's radar is used for range finding during docking proceedurs.
 
uruk said:
Oh, I see. my guess is; if an object reflects radar then it should be able to be tracked.

I think the shuttle's radar is used for range finding during docking proceedurs.
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Very good! The shuttle uses a Ku-band band radar for tracking objects (satellites or payloads) that helps the vehicle dock with them. Apparently, it scan 60 degrees but I don't know which direction the radar normally points. It might have been able to track the debris, assuming the debris was a valid radar target. There's an idea that the debris was a plastic bag or a thermal tile gap filler, in which case the radar wouldn't have helped.

There's also a radar altimiter but it is only used during the landing phase, from 5,000 feet to landing.

By the way, this link takes you to an online reference manual for the Space Transportation System. It's meant as a guide for reporters but it's also a great place to find information on the various space shuttle orbiter, external tank, and solid rocket booster subsystems.
 
Unless you've got enough maneuvering fuel on board to move yourself out of the way, merely tracking the debris isn't going to help much.
 
The OMS/RCS tanks have plenty of fuel in them, even after a trip to the space station. Here's a picture showing the location and relative size of the tanks:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-407/p45.htm

There are two sets of tanks, one for the OMS engine and one for the RCS thrusters. Most of the fuel in the OMS tanks is used by the OMS engines during for the deorbit burn but the RCS thrusters can 'borrow' some fuel from the OMS engines. There's always plenty for manuevering. Also, there are two OMS/RCS pods *and* there's a crossfeed between the two pods, just in case.
 
The shuttle s-band would only see objects greater than about 12cm insize,depending on power output of radar & aspect & material of target.
The ku-band would be able to see objects no smaller than about 2.1cm,same limits as above.
As I understand it, a small thing such as a nut or bolt could hull the shuttle& cause no end of trouble.
Energise the shields!
 
Indded, it is as I expected. The shuttle sustems are designed to 'see' stuff, even small stuff, so that it doesn't run into it.

That I heard a NASA official say, "we don't know how far away this object is." was very suspect to me...

We have video footage of 'something' moving away from the shuttle at a foot persecond, then it changes course several times, AFTER it bumped into Atlantis.

NASA claimed it was a shim...

Where is the general skepticism that I have come to expect form this board community???

Psiload,

I am disappointed in yoru response.

Did you manage to see the video footage???
 
The ISS is low enough that if you drop something, upper-atmospheric drag will slow it down and it will fall to the Earth in about 2 weeks. At least, that's what a NASA debris tracking engineer in Houston said on NPR yesterday. That makes me wonder how they keep the ISS up there.
 
King of the Americas said:
Indded, it is as I expected. The shuttle sustems are designed to 'see' stuff, even small stuff, so that it doesn't run into it.

That I heard a NASA official say, "we don't know how far away this object is." was very suspect to me...
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The system will only "see stuff" that is radar reflective and which is positioned within the sweep of the radar system. The radar system is not capable of 360 degree coverage. It seems more likely than not that the object was not of the proper composition or in the proper position to be accurately detected and/or tracked by the shuttle's radar system.

We have video footage of 'something' moving away from the shuttle at a foot persecond, then it changes course several times, AFTER it bumped into Atlantis.
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On what do you base the claim that the object changed course? It looks to me like the shuttle's camera was being panned and tilited in order to track the object. If you have a reason to think otherwise, I'd love to hear your theory on what, praytell, was causing the apparent "course changes".

NASA claimed it was a shim...
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NASA claimed it may have been a shim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8D5ARTS3aQ&NR

Where is the general skepticism that I have come to expect form this board community???
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You're looking at it. I'm skeptical of the claims that NASA is being deceptive. I'm generally skeptical of claims that the object was anything other than your basic, garden variety, hunk of space junk. I'm highly skeptical of the claim that the object was indicitive of some sort of extraterrestrial intelligence.

Psiload,

I am disappointed in yoru response.

Did you manage to see the video footage???
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Sure did...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8D5ARTS3aQ&NR

As much as I hate to dissappoint you, I just don't see anything in that video which screams LITTLE GREEN MEN!
 
RenaissanceBiker said:
The ISS is low enough that if you drop something, upper-atmospheric drag will slow it down and it will fall to the Earth in about 2 weeks. At least, that's what a NASA debris tracking engineer in Houston said on NPR yesterday. That makes me wonder how they keep the ISS up there.
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You're correct. The ISS is being dragged down and would eventually reenter. They periodically re-boost it using rockets on attached Progress spacecraft.

BTW, I'm assuming King of the Americas isn't actually stupid enough to be seriously suggesting that this was about anything other than a little bit of flotsam and jetsam.

...

ETA: Whoops. I just read the other thread over in community. KoA - you're wrong.
 
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I don't know what it was, how it 'moved', or whether or not NASA is corect about it 'possibly' being a shim...

Psiload, you ARE correct in that the camer 'moves' to track the object, but WHY did it have to do so???


BECAUSE the object changed direction, several times, in fact. It wasn't just 'tracking the object in a constant direction from left to right or up and down', but rather all over the place...

In the link you provided, you can't even SEE the object...

All that we can see is that the camera is mvoing, trying to follow something.

I am using the 'background' to conclude theat the object is 'changing direction'.

AFTER the object 'bumped into Atlantis', why WOULDN'T they turn the radar so that they COULD track it??? Why WOULDN'T they want to know EVERYTHING about the size, shape, and density of the object, so that they'd know how much potential damage it could have done???

"We aren't sure what it was, how far away it was when we caught it on video, or if it even WAS a shim."- from NASA

THAT is no less than amazing to me...
 
King of the Americas said:
I don't know what it was, how it 'moved', or whether or not NASA is corect about it 'possibly' being a shim...

Psiload, you ARE correct in that the camer 'moves' to track the object, but WHY did it have to do so???


BECAUSE the object changed direction, several times, in fact. It wasn't just 'tracking the object in a constant direction from left to right or up and down', but rather all over the place...

In the link you provided, you can't even SEE the object...

All that we can see is that the camera is mvoing, trying to follow something.

I am using the 'background' to conclude theat the object is 'changing direction'.

AFTER the object 'bumped into Atlantis', why WOULDN'T they turn the radar so that they COULD track it??? Why WOULDN'T they want to know EVERYTHING about the size, shape, and density of the object, so that they'd know how much potential damage it could have done???

"We aren't sure what it was, how far away it was when we caught it on video, or if it even WAS a shim."- from NASA

THAT is no less than amazing to me...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8F8Z0BIBd0

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. The object does not appear to change direction in relation to the background. It just seems to be going in a straight line.

The reason why the camera had to be moved to track the object, is because the object is moving in relation to the shuttle. The reason why the camera is moved in such an erratic manner, is because the camera is being panned and tilted manually by a crewmember operating a joystick. This is a stationary camera, it is not hand held. Anyone who has manually operated a remote camera (like a security camera) will tell you that it is a cumbersome procedure which often results in a jerky picture when trying to track a moving person or object.

As far as the object "bumping into" the shuttle... NASA isn't sure if this even happened:

Mystery object might have struck wing
A mystery object flying beneath shuttle Atlantis and an indication the ship's starboard wing might have been struck prompted NASA today to delay the planned return to Earth Wednesday of the orbiter and its six-member crew.

NASA shuttle program manager Wayne Hale said the early indication is that a chunk of ice or some other material might have come loose from the shuttle when the Atlantis astronauts tested the ship's flight control system early today.

Engineers also noted that readings from sensors within the shuttle's right wing showed the thermal armor which protects it might have been hit up to eight times around the same time that the tests were being done.

Hale said it's unlikely engineers will be able to determine exactly what the mystery object is, or its size, mass and distance from the shuttle. Television views of the object simply aren't sharp enough to make those determinations, he said.
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Once again, I hate to disappoint you, but there really is nothing extraordinary going on here:

http://www.floridatoday.com/floridatoday/blogs/spaceteam/

The loss of some debris during a space mission is not unusual. In fact, astronauts who have spent time on the station report that the outpost seems to travel with sort of a small cloud of debris enveloping it. The phenomenon dates back to at least 1962 when John Glenn reported seeing "fireflies" outside his Mercury spacecraft. Those almost certainly were small bits of ice flung off the spaceship, glinting in orbital sunlight. The shuttle itself creates showers of ice any time the astronauts dump wastewater overboard.
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I saw the video of the object. As far as I can tell, it does not change direction. It's moving in a straight line in refrence to the background.

You might detect a little parallax shift as the camera shifts but that would indicate that it is pretty close to the shuttle.
 
Alright, when something comes 'off' the shuttle, it is moving 'away' from it, right?

What would cause it to change direction, and then bump back into the shuttle???

This is from: http://www.space.com/spaceshuttle/

NASA Tracks Mystery Object Near Atlantis Shuttle
19 September 2006 10:55 a.m. EDT

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. – NASA mission controllers are tracking a mystery object hovering between the space shuttle Atlantis and Earth, and traveling at roughly the same speed as the orbiter, agency officials said Tuesday.

Okay, so it was hoovering in a singular positon...so where and how did it go somewhere else???

My point here is that NASA doesn't know, and or isn't saying what exactly happened...

What we DO know is that 'several objects' moved into close proximity to the shuttle, one of which 'may' have bumped into the shuttle, and NONE of which have been positively identified.

IF the object was hoovering in a singluar postion relative to the shuttle, there should have been no need to move the camera...

Where did the objects go, and why was there no effort made to identify and or capture them???

In the video clip you provided there is only 29 seconds of footage, wherein you can bearly see the object. The CNN footage I saw was much more clear. After seeing it 4 times, I concluded that it changed direction no less than a half a dozen times.
 
There were 4 objects witnessed over 2 days.

On the first day, crew member reported that sensors had picked up that something had bumped into the shuttle. Then the objected moved away from the shuttle and hoovered between it and the Earth. Video footage appeared on CNN, which I saw myself. The camera had to move constantly to keep the object in the picture.

On the second day, 3 objects were seen in close relation to the shuttle, two were ring-like, and the third was described as a piece of foil.

The images you present were said to be a plastic bag...

Personally, I have no clue as to what these things are or were.
 
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