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Showdown Coming

Unabogie

Philosopher
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
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Portland, OR
Bush says he won't let Rove be subpoenaed or testify under oath. His "reasonable" offer is to let Rove be "interviewed", but not under oath, not in public, and no transcript may be made.

In other words, he can lie his ass off.

Is this different than what Nixon tried?

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/72.htm


The District Court, upon the motion of the special prosecutor, issued a subpoena to the president requiring him to produce certain tapes and documents relating to precisely identified meetings between the president and others. Although President Nixon released edited transcripts of some of the subpoenaed conversations, his counsel filed a "special appearance" and moved to quash the subpoena on the grounds of executive privilege. When the District Court denied the motion, the president appealed and the case was quickly brought to the Supreme Court. In the following portion of the Court's unanimous opinion, the Supreme Court dealt with two key issues, the power of the judiciary as the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution, and the claim of the president that, in the name of executive privilege, he could choose to withhold materials germane to a criminal investigation. Chief Justice Burger reaffirmed the rulings of Marbury v. Madison and Cooper v. Aaron that under the Constitution the courts have the final voice in determining constitutional questions, and that no person, not even the president of the United States, is above the law. Although there had been some speculation as to whether Nixon would obey the Court, within eight hours after the decision had been handed down the White House announced it would comply. On August 5, 1974, transcripts of sixty-four tape recordings were released, including one that was particularly damaging in regard to White House involvement in the Watergate cover-up. Three days later, his support in Congress almost completely gone, Nixon announced that he would resign.
 
What authority does Bush have to keep Congress from issuing a subpoena to Rove?
 
Missing Emails is Document Dump

Bush has been channeling Nixon for years now, but now it's becoming uncanny.

In the latest dump of documents, the critical period from November to December in 2006 were missing.

In DOJ documents that were publicly posted by the House Judiciary Committee, there is a gap from mid-November to early December in e-mails and other memos, which was a critical period as the White House and Justice Department reviewed, then approved, which U.S. attorneys would be fired while also developing a political and communications strategy for countering any fallout from the firings.
 
Those interested in executive privilege can refer to United States v. Nixon, the unanimous (with Justice Rehnquist not participating) decision that basically ordered Nixon to turn over the tapes to the special prosecutor.

The way Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski argued the case (and the way the Supreme Court addressed the question), what was principally at issue was not whether something like executive privilege existed. Rather, the main contention was that the executive branch could not be the final arbiter of how far the privilege extended. Nixon not only wanted to assert the privilege, he also wanted to be the final authority on its extent. Jaworski, by contrast, urged the Court to rule that the judicial branch was the final arbiter on this point. The Court agreed.

The Court did agree that such a privilege existed and that it was constitutionally based. But that was not the beginning and the end of the inquiry:
Since we conclude that the legitimate needs of the judicial process may outweigh the judicial process may outweigh Presidential privilege, it is necessary to resolve those competing interests in a manner that preserves the essential functions of each branch. ...

The expectation of a President to the confidentiality of his conversations and correspondence, like the claim of confidentiality of judicial deliberations, for example, has all the values to which we accord deference for the privacy of all citizens and, added to those values, is the necessity for protection of the public interest in candid, objective, and even blunt or harsh opinions in Presidential decision-making. A President and those who assist him must be free to explore alternatives in the process of shaping policies and making decisions and to do so in a way many would be unwilling to express except privately. These are the considerations justifying a presumptive privilege for Presidential communications. The privilege is fundamental to the operation of Government and inextricably rooted in the separation of powers under the Constitution.
...
No case of the Court, however, has extended this high degree of deference to a President's generalized interest in confidentiality. Nowhere in the Constitution, as we have noted earlier, is there any explicit reference to a privilege of confidentiality, yet to the extent this interest relates to the effective discharge of a President's powers, it is constitutionally based.
...
In this case we must weigh the importance of the general privilege of confidentiality of Presidential communications in performance of the President's responsibilities against the inroads of such a privilege on the fair administration of criminal justice. The interest in preserving confidentiality is weighty indeed and entitled to great respect. However, we cannot conclude that advisers will be moved to temper the candor of their remarks by the infrequent occasions of disclosure because of the possibility that such conversations will be called for in the context of a criminal prosecution.

On the other hand, the allowance of the privilege to withhold evidence that is demonstrably relevant in a criminal trial would cut deeply into the guarantee of due process of law and gravely impair the basic function of the courts. A President's acknowledged need for confidentiality in the communications of his office is general in nature, whereas the constitutional need for production of relevant evidence in a criminal proceeding is specific and central to the fair adjudication of a particular criminal case in the administration of justice. Without access to specific facts a criminal prosecution may be totally frustrated. The President's broad interest in confidentiality of communications will not be vitiated by disclosure of a limited number of conversations preliminarily shown to have some bearing on the pending criminal cases.

We conclude that when the ground for asserting privilege as to subpoenaed materials sought for use in a criminal trial is based only on the generalized interest in confidentiality, it cannot prevail over the fundamental demands of due process of law in the fair administration of criminal justice.
 
Those interested in executive privilege can refer to United States v. Nixon, the unanimous (with Justice Rehnquist not participating) decision that basically ordered Nixon to turn over the tapes to the special prosecutor.

The way Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski argued the case (and the way the Supreme Court addressed the question), what was principally at issue was not whether something like executive privilege existed. Rather, the main contention was that the executive branch could not be the final arbiter of how far the privilege extended. Nixon not only wanted to assert the privilege, he also wanted to be the final authority on its extent. Jaworski, by contrast, urged the Court to rule that the judicial branch was the final arbiter on this point. The Court agreed.

The Court did agree that such a privilege existed and that it was constitutionally based. But that was not the beginning and the end of the inquiry:
Thanks for the summary, I'll be sharing it with my kids this evening.

I'll also point out that David Iglesias has gone rather public with his side of why he was fired, (due to the duties of his office to only take cases where he has strong evidence, rather than making "show trials" with little evidence for a public spectacle) and squarely placed the administration on the defensive with regard to their version of history.

I liked this closer in his article:

Good has already come from this scandal. Yesterday, the Senate voted to overturn a 2006 provision in the Patriot Act that allows the attorney general to appoint indefinite interim United States attorneys. The attorney general’s chief of staff has resigned and been replaced by a respected career federal prosecutor, Chuck Rosenberg. The president and attorney general have admitted that “mistakes were made,” and Mr. Domenici and Ms. Wilson have publicly acknowledged calling me.

President Bush addressed this scandal yesterday. I appreciate his gratitude for my service — this marks the first time I have been thanked. But only a written retraction by the Justice Department setting the record straight regarding my performance would settle the issue for me.
DR
 
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Can anyone with more political savvy than myself explain why Bush might allow Congress to interview his staff but not allow it to be under oath or recorded in any way? I'm trying to be fair but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything other than they either plan to lie or plan to reveal something so shameful that the public can't know.
 
Can anyone with more political savvy than myself explain why Bush might allow Congress to interview his staff but not allow it to be under oath or recorded in any way? I'm trying to be fair but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything other than they either plan to lie or plan to reveal something so shameful that the public can't know.

To be fair, there's also the precedent-setting value. If Bush allows his staff to be interviewed under oath in this particular case, but then balks in two months when another scandal breaks, the US press (and public) will make the obvious inference that he's got something even more serious to hide in the second scandal.

Just as a simple example -- I had a student's parent phone me a number of years ago to find out how her daughter was doing in my class. Her daughter was doing fantastically, at the top of the class. But I didn't feel comfortable telling her that, because it would cause problems further down the road, with students whose privacy I do need to protect. Or imagine the following set of interview questions.

Senator, you're running for President as part of the Moral Order Party. Have you ever yourself committed an imoral act? Well, that's a very broad question....

You're right, I apologize. Let me rephrase. Have you ever slept with a woman who isn't your wife? Of course not!

Have you ever slept with a man? Of course not. That would be immoral!

Have you ever slept with a goat? A single goat? Never!

How about two or more goats at once? Er, I'm afraid that I can't answer that question. Privacy, you know.

Bush is also trying very hard to maintain the political supremacy that he has enjoyed for the first six years of his Presidency. Even if he is eventually forced to give Congress everything it asks for, he wants it to be very clear that he's doing so under his own terms, and not under coercion -- even if, in fact, he's being coerced.
 
I just came here to say what chulbert said.

Is Bush trying to commit political suicide? Explicitly announcing that your staffers won't be under oath or on the record does not instill confidence your administration's integrity.*

*If there was any integrity to begin with, or if there remains any left to be squandered is up for debate.
 
I just came here to say what chulbert said.

Is Bush trying to commit political suicide? Explicitly announcing that your staffers won't be under oath or on the record does not instill confidence your administration's integrity.*

*If there was any integrity to begin with, or if there remains any left to be squandered is up for debate.


I can only think of 2 possiblities: 1) What Rove and/or Miers will say is very damaging if true or easily verified if false, therefore it can't be said on the record, or 2) Bush is not listening to anyone with any common sense.
 
I wish the press would confront Bush with his justification for the NSA wire-tapping: If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. "So, Mr. President, regarding the AG dust-up, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Right?"
 
I wish the press would confront Bush with his justification for the NSA wire-tapping: If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. "So, Mr. President, regarding the AG dust-up, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Right?"

Ding ding, the number one answer.
 
Can anyone with more political savvy than myself explain why Bush might allow Congress to interview his staff but not allow it to be under oath or recorded in any way? I'm trying to be fair but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything other than they either plan to lie or plan to reveal something so shameful that the public can't know.
The explanation given is that :
The president said he will not allow them to testify under oath because it would damage their ability to give him their "candid advice."
That is sort of a valid point. Each thing that is discussed need is not necessarily a thing that was accepted. So I don't think that the entire discussion should necessarily be transcribed, but only the parts that are relevant to the decisions that were made. At least let us find out about the part where Gonzales says, "But it would be wrong."
 
Suppose it is established that Miers and/or Rove had direct involvement in the dismissal of the federal prosecutors. Is that illegal? If no laws have been broken and there is no formal investigation, do the findings in United States v. Nixon apply?
 
Just as a simple example -- I had a student's parent phone me a number of years ago to find out how her daughter was doing in my class. Her daughter was doing fantastically, at the top of the class. But I didn't feel comfortable telling her that, because it would cause problems further down the road, with students whose privacy I do need to protect.

Good decision. Assuming the daughter is 18, you are not allowed to discuss her grades with anyone without her explicit consent.

That even includes her parents.
 
Suppose it is established that Miers and/or Rove had direct involvement in the dismissal of the federal prosecutors. Is that illegal? If no laws have been broken and there is no formal investigation, do the findings in United States v. Nixon apply?

It could be illegal in at least two ways. It's now proven fact that DOJ officials lied to Congress under oath, when they described both the reasons why the USA's were fired and who was involved. Did Rove tell them to lie? If so, that's illegal.

Secondly, why were they really fired? Was Carol Lam of San Diego fired because she had nabbed Duke Cunningham and Dusty Foggo, and was close to getting Porter Goss and maybe even Cheney? That's obstruction of justice.

Duke Cunningham was given a yacht as part of his bribe, and it was bought for him by Brent Wilkes of MZM. MZM had just been given a no-bid, first time contract to supply Dick Cheney with office furniture for $140,000. Forget for the moment that $140,000 is a hell of a lot for office furniture. Two weeks later, he buys the boat for Cunningham, at a prearranged price, of...$140,000.

Coincidence? Maybe, but as soon as Lam tells DOJ that she's executing a search warrant at CIA, Kyle Sampson writes that email where he describes the "real problem of Carol Lam". She's then placed on the list of bad eggs, Issa leaks the border control memo, and the rest is history.

That would be far worse than what Nixon did, and certainly illegal.
 

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