Should convicted Libyan terrorist have been released?

Should convicted Libyan terrorist have been released?

  • Yes. He is a dying man and we should show compassion as a result.

    Votes: 11 11.5%
  • Yes. Such are the doubts over his conviction, and given that he will die before any appeal he shoul

    Votes: 20 20.8%
  • Yes, but only under a prisoner transfer with strict rules over media access.

    Votes: 4 4.2%
  • No. Regardless of the legal considerations on the specific case, this hands a propaganda victory to

    Votes: 7 7.3%
  • No. He is legally guilty for the deaths of 270 people and should serve his sentence fully.

    Votes: 51 53.1%
  • Any other opinion, specify below!

    Votes: 3 3.1%

  • Total voters
    96
:eek: that sounds almost too crazy to be true. The link isn't working for me though... where is this info from? Libya itself?


Wildcat just pasted text into the link instead of the url. I googled it and the correct link it this.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/08/21/britain.lockerbie.deal/index.html?iref=24hours

Actually, this isn't that far out of line with what the BBC is reporting. Basically, that the Libyans are now claiming that the release was part of a trade deal. This is being denied by Westminster.

It's not that implausible though. In May of 2007, Tony Blair met Gadaffi in the "deal in the desert" and made an agreement with him that included authorising prisoner transfer of Libyan prisoners in Britain back to Tripoli. A few hours later, BP signed a multi-million pound deal with Libya for oil extraction.

There was a lot of recrimination about that, because the Libyans claimed that the whole point of the agreement had been to allow Megrahi's release, while Tony Blair came out with several contradictory statments. He said that Megrahi had been explicitly excluded, then he said he hadn't, who knows. However, as there were and are no other Libyan prisoners in Britain, it's difficult to see what else it could have been about.

The reason it went wrong was that while that deal was being agreed, there was an election in Scotland, and the Labour party lost power to the SNP. So by the time the agreement was signed, Blair was in no position to deliver what the Libyan's maintained he'd promised - basically, that the Scottish government wouldn't be a problem so far as acceding to a request for prisoner transfer was concerned.

Shortly after that, Megrahi was given leave to lodge a second appeal, which stopped any prisoner transfer in its tracks anyway. Megrahi didn't want to abandon his appeal in order to go home. However, that all changed the following year, when he was diagnosed with cancer, and then in the end, with only a short time to live. This was compounded by the fact that the appeal was proceeding at a glacial pace, thanks in a large part to the prosecution's refusal to disclose a document or documents said to have evidence that would exonerate Megrahi.

As far as the Scottish government is concerned, public percaption during the week is that it was acting autonomously. However, Libya has now claimed that the Westminster government put pressure on the Scottish government to grant the compassionate release.

Frankly, who knows. However the history of the 2007 agreement, where there is little doubt that a deal was made with Tony Blair to secure Megrahi's release as part of trade negotiations, does lend credence to the allegations.

Rolfe.
 
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As to the poll, I chose the "Yes, he is dying" option, though in my mind, the serious doubts over his conviction would definitely also play a role.

It's fully within the Scottish legal system to grant release on compassionate grounds and they've done it in most cases. And I don't quite understand the outrage that is displayed here over his release; if you take a more detached - and cynical - look, all governments involved - US, UK, and Scottish - are happy about how this played out.

There were serious doubts about Megrahi's guilt, the evidence was thin, and the UN observer at Camp Zeist called the trial a sham. He was given a very short time to file an appeal, and it wasn't granted.

(As an aside, was this a special rule drawn up for this case, or is it normal in Scotland that appeals can be denied? In Holland, for comparison, everybody is entitled to an appeal and dispute the findings of fact there too).

In 2003, Megrahi filed a request for appeal with the Review Board, that was granted in 2007. The Review Board agreed he had very strong arguments for a successful appeal. He then filed appeal, but that hadn't yet come off the ground. The prosecution had also appealed against the sentence, because they considered it too lenient, and one of the newspaper articles linked mentioned that the prosecution's appeal had precedence over his. Justice may be slow, but this glacial speed reeks of deliberate obstruction.

It is very obvious that Megrahi only got his release because he dropped his appeal. The Scottish government was all too happy to let him go, IMHO: a successful appeal - an outcome with a reasonable probability, otherwise the Review Board would not have granted the appeal - would have been an embarrassment for the Scottish legal system in their biggest case thus far. That the current Scottish government is SNP doesn't really matter for that; whatever colour a government is, it is always loathe to have to get the skeletons out of the closet that their predecessors left there. It would also have been an embarrassment for the UK and US government, who had been heavily involved in this too. One of the technical experts whose testimony was doubted was an FBI man, to name just one thing.

As another aside: the 2007 "deal in the desert" Rolfe has mentioned a couple of times, could have been legitimately challenged by the US government. One of the preconditions for the Camp Zeist trial was that the convicted would server their sentences in Scottish prisons.

Anyway, with the current deal, no-one has to worry that the skeletons will ever come out of the closet. Obama, Brown and Salmond, or their advisers, are undoubtedly acutely aware of that. Those who are convinced that Megrahi was without any doubt the perpetrator, are just deluding themselves. Those who feel outrage over his release, lose sight of the bigger picture, which is that justice hasn't been served as it should be. And no-one knows for sure who did it and why.

Justice delayed is justice denied.
 
Libya is playing this for all the propaganda it's worth. According to the Libyan government, this isn't about compassion for a dying man at all:

Yep, this is about those bastard Scots finally doing the right thing and releasing a political hostage.

Oh, and Kadhafi's son says it was also done as a prerequisite for a trade deal with Britain.

Like I said, played for fools.

:eek: that sounds almost too crazy to be true. The link isn't working for me though... where is this info from? Libya itself?
Oops, sorry. Fixed link: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/08/22/britain.lockerbie.deal/index.html

eta: Oh, i see Rolfe already fixed it. Thanks!

And I'm not saying I believe there was actually a trade deal involved, just that this is how the Libyans are playing it for propaganda purposes.
 
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You think the sentencing judge was unaware that the Scottish legal system allows for a convict to be pardoned and that this means he might be released early?
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event. I don't know which other convicted criminals were so pardoned but I'd guess their crimes weren't of the magnitude of the crimes of which he was convicted.
 
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event.

Yes, it's rare. It's still a known part of the penal system, known and understood by the judge who made passed the sentence, so that's still where you'll find your asterix. (And I don't know if I would call it all that rare. I suspect that on a per-capita basis it happens about as much as executions do in the USA.)
 
Yes, it's rare. It's still a known part of the penal system, known and understood by the judge who made passed the sentence, so that's still where you'll find your asterix. (And I don't know if I would call it all that rare. I suspect that on a per-capita basis it happens about as much as executions do in the USA.)
How many of those 23 were murderers?
 
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event. I don't know which other convicted criminals were so pardoned but I'd guess their crimes weren't of the magnitude of the crimes of which he was convicted.

I wouldn't call 23 cases in 10 years in a country with 5 million people a rare event. As I understand from these threads, you are eligible for release on compassionate grounds if you have less than 3 months to live according to the doctor. It's pretty rare this happens to someone who, like Megrahi, is in his mid-50s; most people get to that terminal stage only over their 70s. As pensioners are not known for committing many crimes, I suspect a lot of those 23 cases were indeed heavy crimes, like murder and rape. I admit, this is all qualitatively, but just to put things into perspective until someone finds the numbers. :)
 
I had big doubts at first, but now I do have to seriously wonder whether this release wasn't about compassion at all, but about striking a deal with Libya about oil deals:
On Friday, Lord Trefgarne, chairman of the Libyan British Business Council, said Mr. Megrahi’s release had opened the way for Britain’s leading oil companies to pursue multibillion-dollar oil contracts with Libya, which had demanded Mr. Megrahi’s return in talks with British officials and business executives.

Lord Trefgarne told the BBC that talks on oil contracts had “not moved as fast as we would have hoped and expected” since Tony Blair, then prime minister, met in a tent in Libya five years ago with Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, and set the terms for the “deal in the desert” that sketched a reconciliation between Colonel Qaddafi’s pariah government and the West.

British business executives had made no secret of their intense lobbying for a prisoner transfer treaty proposed by Mr. Blair and Col. Qaddafi and finally ratified by Britain and Libya in April; before Mr. Megrahi’s cancer diagnosis, that treaty was seen as the most likely avenue for his return to Libya. But his cancer, and a finding by medical specialists that he was not likely to live more than three months, cleared the way for his release on compassionate grounds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/w....html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

Wow, just wow!
 
Might I comment the coverage in the Scottish press to you, as you're picking this up some days after those of us in the UK. I'd start with the Herald, if I were you (www.theherald.co.uk).
 
Who cares?
I certainly do. If other compassionate releases were for minor crimes or even major ones but for which a long sentence had already been served then maybe there were other factors involved.

Like oil deals.
 
It might be worth examining what exactly would happen if the cases that were given compassionate release in the past were no longer allowed that option.

Often, they still wouldn't be in prison. Prison hospitals do not have the facilities to deal with such cases. They would be in an ordinary hospital and as such they would be chained to a guard 24 hours a day. This takes resources away from the prison and can't be very pleasant for a prison guard to be chained to a dying person.

http://www.howardleague.org/francescrookblog/ronnie-biggs-release
http://www.howardleague.org/francescrookblog/compassionate-release-from-prison
 
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I had big doubts at first, but now I do have to seriously wonder whether this release wasn't about compassion at all, but about striking a deal with Libya about oil deals:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/w....html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

Wow, just wow!


As there is more than one active thread on this I'm not sure if I posted it before. Not in this thread, as far as I remember.

First, good luck with persuading scissorhands to accept that part of the story. When I made reference to it in the other thread to point out that Labour party outrage over Megrahi's release was entirely synthetic, he refused to believe it had happened at all. However, as those of us who were paying attention to politics in 2007 remember, in May of that year Tony Blair (Labour prime minister in London) met Gadaffi and signed a deal which included provisions for Libyan prisoners in Britain to be transferred to Libya. "Hours" later (according to the BBC), BP signed a multi-million-pound deal with Libya in relation to oil exploration and extraction.

This deal caused all sorts of complications, principally because it was not up to Tony Blair whether or not Megrahi was transferred - this is a devolved matter, and the decision of the (then) Scottish executive. Another little wrinkle was that the original deal between Britain and the USA explicitly stated that anyone convicted at Camp Zeist would serve out his sentence in Scotland.

The Libyans declared that this deal had of course been referring to Megrahi, what else would it have been about, there were and are no other Libyans in prison in Britain. They were aware that the decision was one for the Scottish Executive, but Tony Blair had assured them that wouldn't be a problem.

However, it was. Unfortunately for Blair's plans, at the beginning of May the Labour party had unexpectedly lost the Scottish general election to the SNP. For a little while it was uncertain just who would form the government, but by the time the Deal in the Desert was signed, the SNP were the government and Alex Salmond was First Minister. Which of course meant that Blair couldn't just call up Jack McConnell and tell him to grant the prisoner transfer, as he'd obviously intended.

When details of the deal emerged, Salmond was furious. Blair told a different story every day, but had to concede that the matter was one of Scottish jurisdiction. And the SNP government was in no mood to roll over and wave its paws in the air. It seems likely that Libya was displeased by this, because it had granted the oil exploration rights, and it hadn't got Megrahi. It may well be that Libya now sees the compassionate release as the belated completion of that deal, and so in its view is telling the truth about the release being linked to a trade agreement.

At the time there was a lot said in the media to the effect that Megrahi's conviction was a miscarriage of justice and he should be released, but that wasn't the point, keep out of our affairs Blair. However, a few weeks later the SCCRC published the results of its enquiry into the case, which found six grounds for appeal, and Megrahi had an ongoing appeal. The existence of this appeal meant that prisoner transfer was off the agenda. (Actually, it now appears that the existence of a Crown appeal against sentence which had been outstanding for some time also forbade a transfer, but nobody mentioned that at the time.) Megrahi said then that he did not wish to forego his appeal in order to get back home, he wanted to prove his innocence.

The appeal proceeded with glacial speed (although I believe it did have priority over the Crown appeal), and a year later nothing had happened when Megrahi was diagnosed with cancer. At that time it was stated that this didn't change anything and as his condition wasn't immediately life-threatening, the appeal would proceed and he wasn't eligible for compassionate release. But even then, the subtext that compassionate release would probably be granted if his condition became terminal was clearly present.

The events of last week were just the culmination of all this. The Scottish government was always going to prefer compassionate release to prisoner transfer, partly because that's what it was, Megrahi wouldn't have been going anywhere if he hadn't been ill, partly because prisoner transfer would have been in breach of the original agreement with the USA, and partly because it didn't want to do it Blair's way on principle.

The current Westminster denials regarding a trade deal sound sincere to me, for what it's worth. The catalyst for all this was Megrahi's illness. But bear in mind that if there were any trade deals, they were not done with the Scottish government but with Westminster. Westminster has been fairly silent during all this; obviously they want Megrahi back in Libya, that's what they were trying to achieve two years ago, but it suited them to let the SNP take the flak.

So maybe a lot of what Libya is saying is mischiefmaking and simple stirring it. Could well be. But they may feel themselves justified in linking the release to a trade agreement, because they see it as Britain finally delivering on the agreement made with Tony Blair in 2007, which was linked to the BP contract.

Rolfe.
 
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event. I don't know which other convicted criminals were so pardoned but I'd guess their crimes weren't of the magnitude of the crimes of which he was convicted.


Wildcat, remember that very long sentences are not the norm in Scotland. Few people develop an illness that leaves them only three months to live while in jail. Most criminals have served their sentences and been released before they're old enough to develop illnesses of that gravity. And, as someone else pointed out, the total population of Scotland is 5 million people, so scale down your expectations a bit.

It's not just in Scotland that this happens. England recently granted compassionate release to Ronnie Biggs, the Great Train Robber. The reason he was in jail at his age was that he escaped over 40 years ago and lived the high life in Brazil where he was beyond extradition. He only decided to return to England voluntarily when he was elderly and sick, and wanted better healthcare. He knew perfectly well that if he timed it right, he would only serve a few years before being released to die. In fact he served about 8 years. When the English authorities announced only TWO WEEKS AGO that he was being granted compassionate release, I knew Megrahi would be out too by the end of the month.

This case is not a direct comparison of course, but it has its own disturbing elements which caused a fair old protest at the time.

I understand that Kenny MacAskill has not refused a single request for compassionate release in his time as Justice Secretary. Actually, we don't have many multiple murderers here, let alone multiple murderers who have developed a teminal illness in prison (they'd be more likely to be in Carstairs, which is a completely different kettle of fish). So you're just not going to find a comparable case as such.

Rolfe.
 
Son, shouting about the fact he was convicted isn't going to win you this argument. You need to address facts, evidence, and legal process.
Interesting. I've heard of this before and I'm interested in why he was convicted and why he should not have been. Any links are appreciated, or even a couple books you would recommend.
 
He's legally right of course. Legally, the conviction stands. And Kenny MacAskill is a smart enough lawyer to know that he has to hold that line irrespective of what he thinks personally.

I've been thinking this over all week. How would I feel about it if I knew Megrahi was guilty? Suppose this was Harold Shipman or Fred West? The deaths of the people on board Maid of the Seas were horiffic. I suspect that, given the choice, most people would prefer to have been on one of the planes on 9/11. And it was a deliberate, premeditated, fiendishly-planned crime.

At first I thought, no, if he really did do it, it's too much. But then, two things. First, who is the more guilty? The subordinate who carries out the plan, or the person who devised the plan in the first place? Should it not be Gadaffi in jail, rather than being lionised as a World Leader by Blair and his mates?

If the Official Version of this is indeed true, one also has to remember why it was done. The USA carried out a number of bombing raids on Libya in 1986, killing several hundred Libyan civilians, including Gadaffi's step-daughter. This apparently as reprisal for a Libyan terrorist bombing of a night club where US soldiers were present.

I'm sure the sufferings of the people caught up in the bombing raids were pretty horiffic too. And maybe so was the night-club bombing. And so it goes on. Outrage, resentment, revenge. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Somehow, we've got beyond this. Nobody bombed Tripoli after Lockerbie. We'd rather have Libya as a friendly trading partner, after all. And if what it takes to secure this change of heart on all sides is the release of the one cogwheel who was actually caught, and who only has months to live, then I think we can do it.

And that's completely ignoring the fact that Megrahi's conviction makes Barry George's look like a bang-to-rights job, and it's probably the passengers on the Iranian Airbus in 1988 we should be thinking about when we contemplate revenge and counter-revenge.

Rolfe.
 
Interesting. I've heard of this before and I'm interested in why he was convicted and why he should not have been. Any links are appreciated, or even a couple books you would recommend.

Put
+Thurman +timer +residue
into Google

And take it from there. They didn't even test the critical piece of evidence for explosives residue. And it goes much deeper than that.
 
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Put
+Thurman +timer +residue
into Google

And take it from there. They didn't even test the critical piece of evidence for explosives residue. And it goes much deeper than that.

Just like at GZ!!!
Did they ship it off to China?
And have you got a youtube link?
 
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