I grow tired of hearing of "eastern" medicine as if it's better. I want to make a deal with eastern countries. The western countries will stop using eastern medicine for a year if they stop using western medicine for a year. Practiioners of "eastern" medicine could never agree to this, unless they wanted to start dying of stupid things again.
Eos of the Eons
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a_unique_person said:
Who's anecdotes are these. I find them quite opposite to reality.
Dirty Dealing? My doctor tells me to get the no-name brands of drugs. They are cheaper.
Drug companies subverting the review process?
I'm sorry, but this sounds like typical woo propoganda.
Sure, drug companies advertise. Who has heard of ibuprofen compared to Advil? As soon as I see the advertised product I write down the active ingredient. The most advertised zit remedies are benzoyl peroxide. You can spend a few hundred dollars ordering the junk off the TV, or spend ten bucks at the drug stor.
Btu, so what? They made the stuff, they need to pay for research by paying for advertising. The payoff for advertising is humungous compared to just coming up with the product. You have to pay to get your return. How do you think movies get the bucks? The movies with the most advertising get the most profit. How much did it take to make the movie compared to all the advertising? You'd be surprised how much all the advertising costs.
Can you back up any of the anecdotes with proof of their validity? Can you name all the ten drugs the guy was taking and what for?
It's more likely the guy was taking 3, and changed to two or something. What do you take for side effects that won't affect the actual medication for your condition?
There is a reality of ethics in the mainstream compared to the liars who aren't regulated.
The liars make the competition look bad, and make up stories to help it along. They then make up stories about how much good they do, but actually have no proof. And when you look into it, you see the bogus stories are completely untrue.
Case in point,
A guy was claiming there was an overdose of mercury in a DPT vaccine that only his neice got (and no other kid). Then he claimed it cause her brain to rot away from this white matter disease. He claimed a neurlogist at the Mayo clinic told him this-the neurologist diagnosed this.
A. There is no mercury in any DPT vaccine.
B. There is no way then that one of the doses was drowned in mercury.
C. The disease he was talking about was genetic.
D. There has never been a case of mercury causing that kind of brain wasting disease in the history of humanity.
E. He refused to name the neurologist.
So, we need the facts from your anectdotes.
What were the 10 drugs? What was the condition the drugs were treating? What were the side effects, etc.
What was the newer more expensive drug? What were the existing cheaper ones? What was the drug company trying to advertise the new drug?
Moral of the story? If you don't have the facts, you can't come to a conclusion.
Thus, I don't believe the only reason drug companies are around is to fleece people. It's the doctors that do the prescribing, not the drug companies. Pharmacists are also highly trained and do look out for the customers. I never pay more than I need to by asking for the generic brand, and I always question what is necessary.
My story...
I was just dying one time I had the flu. My guts were feeling like they were being knifed from the inside out. I was drinking grape juice, and had the worst case of the runs ever. I was staying away from milk products. I drank lots of water (I'm sure some people already see the problem).
I finally went in to the hospital. Did I get a prescription of any sort? Gravol, anything for relief of the runs? Pepto Bismal?
Nope. They gave me a can of ginger ale. I was dying of pain, and didn't even get a tylenol or aspirin, or anything. I got ginger ale.
I felt a million times better after drinking it.
Apparently water and juice is the worst for when you have the runs. I had gas all through my intestines including my duodenum. Gas freaking hurts! I can totally understand when a baby screams when they are gassy.
You can take ginger ale, sports drinks, pedialyte, etc. Never drink just water or juice when you have the flu.
Now if I had gone to a homeopath? I bet they would have sold me some sort of stupid water. That would have just aggravated the whole thing. Or a naturopath? I'm sure some remedy would have cost me some money.
Instead, I got a can of pop and found out what I should never do the next time I got that sick.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
To paraphrase Winston Churchill, capitalism is the worst form of economy, except for all the others. It is not perfect, you just have to understand it's failings. Drug companies will try to push drugs that really aren't as effective as they really are. My own doctor (former), was one who stamped, 'no substitutions' on prescriptions.
I think that the benefits of modern drugs are often 'miraculous'. However, as has been pointed out already, many of th reasons for our longer lives have a lot to do with other reasons besides just the drugs that are around.
I am still waiting for the drug companies to put out a visible campaign about why people with a cold should not harrass their doctor for antibiotics. There are Government funded campaigns around on this subject, I can't recall seeing one funded by the drug companies.
I think that the benefits of modern drugs are often 'miraculous'. However, as has been pointed out already, many of th reasons for our longer lives have a lot to do with other reasons besides just the drugs that are around.
I am still waiting for the drug companies to put out a visible campaign about why people with a cold should not harrass their doctor for antibiotics. There are Government funded campaigns around on this subject, I can't recall seeing one funded by the drug companies.
Blondin
Muse
Don't be knockin' the herbs. A bit of Rosemary is my idea of a wild Thyme.
Deetee
Illuminator
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Eos of the Eons said:
Eos, I have to add my bit to this (much as I hate to contradict something you have said - all of your posts are pretty accurate and usually get 11/10 with me) but as somone who works in the medical profession, I have built up a healthy disregard for phama's efforts to persuade us to prescribe this or the other drug.
No, the only reason pharmas are around is not to fleece people, but after all they are businesses working in a cut-throat environment, and those that don't succeed in making a decent profit get swallowed up or sink.
Often a company has spent millions getting a drug to market, hoping on a decent return, only for them to find it may not be as popular or as successfu las they hoped. Their response is usually to push the marketing envelope further, hoping that gullible practitioners and the like will opt for prescribing their product. Every little bit helps. They don't just let the product die. They look for little marketing niches ("but our drug has a more durable pharmacokinetic profile, enabling once daily dosing".... etc).
As for unrealistic claims by companies? - look at the furore about Astra's new lipid drug Crestor recently. They were heavily slated in the Lancet journal for their interpretation and promtion of the studies.
Put yourself in their shoes- you have just spent $700Million/whatever getting a drug produced, and then find it provides little additional benefit over cheaper alternatives. What do you do? Cut the price a little til you have the lion's share of the market, then raise the price? Promote your drug as being better in x amount of theoretical scenarios? Point out potential disadvantages of rival products? Bribe doctors with foreign trips to exotic locations for drug launches? I guess all of these and more.
The companies are not altruists.
Also, it is quite feasible that patients end up on several redundant drugs, when fewer will do. I have often seen patients on 4 or 5 types of different pain killers, some of which will actually cause antagonism of opiate receptors (thus lessening the effect!).
Eos of the Eons
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Yep, I think I said as much in my post too. So, like I said, they aren't just there to fleece people.
What I find is remarkable is all the homeopaths and naturopaths who go over the edge on their accusations. Their sly little anecdotes might sometimes be "partially" true, but in most cases are just pure fiction.
Talk about "Pointing out 'potential' disadvantages of rival products".
There is a line of ethics that people cross when they are trying to sell alternatives that drugs companies don't cross in order to remain credible. Like you point out, they have a lot to lose. So you won't see the makers of aspirin saying that tylenol is killing kids or causing every disease in the book. I don't see the cut throating that the folks selling "alternatives" do.
That's basically my point.
So when I hear anecdotes, I want to hear specifics. That way I can tear them apart the way I did with the "white matter" disease. If they are true, then I can't, and I have to believe it.
Ugh, check out this drivel, talk about anecdotes!
http://www.dunnconnect.com/articles/2004/02/11/lifestyles/life01.txt
What I find is remarkable is all the homeopaths and naturopaths who go over the edge on their accusations. Their sly little anecdotes might sometimes be "partially" true, but in most cases are just pure fiction.
Talk about "Pointing out 'potential' disadvantages of rival products".
There is a line of ethics that people cross when they are trying to sell alternatives that drugs companies don't cross in order to remain credible. Like you point out, they have a lot to lose. So you won't see the makers of aspirin saying that tylenol is killing kids or causing every disease in the book. I don't see the cut throating that the folks selling "alternatives" do.
That's basically my point.
So when I hear anecdotes, I want to hear specifics. That way I can tear them apart the way I did with the "white matter" disease. If they are true, then I can't, and I have to believe it.
Ugh, check out this drivel, talk about anecdotes!
http://www.dunnconnect.com/articles/2004/02/11/lifestyles/life01.txt
El Greco
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If I believed in god, I would believe that pharmaceutical companies are the devil. As a pharmacist who has also worked in the past for Eli Lilly, I have looooots of anecdotes. You don't want to know how they promote drugs and what deals they make with some doctors. You don't want to know the place of "scientific data" in the deals. As soon as a new drug is approved, then anything goes... I am not comparing them to woo-woos, but they have other powers that woo-woos wouldn't even dream of: LOTS of money to use in every possible way.
It seems like there is more to life than just years lived. I think that life quality should also be taken into consideration somehow. Afterall, living 95 years as a homeless person in India ain't exactly something to be hyping as the wonders of modern medicine.
Something like for a given year t:
LifeIndex(t) = LifeExpectancy(t) + LifeQuality(t)
Of course LifeExpectancy and LifeQuality (especailly LifeQuality) probably vary a lot between continents and cultures, so maybe something like for a given year t and culture i:
LifeIndex(t,i) = LifeExpectancy(t,i) + LifeQuality(t,i)
is needed.
Something like for a given year t:
LifeIndex(t) = LifeExpectancy(t) + LifeQuality(t)
Of course LifeExpectancy and LifeQuality (especailly LifeQuality) probably vary a lot between continents and cultures, so maybe something like for a given year t and culture i:
LifeIndex(t,i) = LifeExpectancy(t,i) + LifeQuality(t,i)
is needed.
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Eos of the Eons said:
From there;
"While appointments with a homeopath depend on the individual's needs, with Moseman, the initial consultation is $200; and after that appointments are $60 plus the cost of the remedy, $15"
Wow! Overheads=approx nothing other than rent. Another one to bring up when they plead poverty and claim no financial vested interest.
T'ai Chi said:
I think this is a good idea. I wonder if the LifeQuality should be a multiplicative rather than additive factor in some way. That way, your LifeIndex could be very low or zero if your LifeQuality is low or zero (e.g. in a coma or something).
I would still argue that age should also play a factor, in addition to LifeExpectancy. There is something to be said for living to a ripe old age, and having lived a high quality life at the same time. Surely there is satisfaction (higher LifeIndex) in that, regardless of the fact your LifeExpectancy is shortening. The exact relationship is probably very debatable, but it is an interesting idea.
T'ai Chi said:
Well, Who Chi (I think I like that better than T'aidini), I take it you're getting into expectation.
Let's say you can develop a valid LifeIndex(t,x,y,z,q), whatever the variables are.
How would you go about determining the best path over the "LifeIndex" surface?
Eos of the Eons
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El Greco said:
Eh oh, don't get them naturopaths going going
What kind of deals can they make with doctors? Spill it. If you can. I want a doc/hospital and what drug and what deal. [/demand]