Shakespeare

[Senex]

Horatio sees the ghost too, and he's not simple-minded. In fact, he's quite skeptical at first.

Skeptical at first.

The soldiers already planted the exact image of Hamlet's dad in armor in Horatio's head. Horatio saw what was previously told to him by others in a fog filled alcohol fortified evening. Perhaps Horatio's mom was filled with worry about the spirit world and while bringing him up that effected Horatio's thinking. Many people see ghosts in where they are told is haunted areas. Horatio is just one of a large percentage of people who was set up to see ghosts in a fog.

 

[Senex]

Ya know, you can't just make up anything and add it to the story as it suits you.

I could but I didn't

This is similar to the commentary in another thread about great movies, where at least two posters are insisting that their interpretation of the end of Taxi Driver (that it was a dream sequence) could possibly correct; this in spite of quoted interviews with the screenwriter and director saying specifically that this was not so. Even in the face of that evidence, their opinions stand as "well I could be right".

I've watched Taxi Driver a number of times and that interpretation is bulloney.

The predictions are not Sylvia or John Edward style. They are very specific. "You, you're going to be king/thane. You other guy, you're not going to be but many of your descendants will."

Did they make their predictions plain? Why not? Because they couldn't say you will be King/Thane next December 2nd. The witches were throwing the woo. They weren't certain.

Your anachronistic projections make for interesting stories. You ought to pen some of them. Shakespeare wrote the stories he wrote, though. Not the ones you imagine.

Shakespeare and I are tight.

 

[Lucian]

Skeptical at first.

The soldiers already planted the exact image of Hamlet's dad in armor in Horatio's head. Horatio saw what was previously told to him by others in a fog filled alcohol fortified evening. Perhaps Horatio's mom was filled with worry about the spirit world and while bringing him up that effected Horatio's thinking. Many people see ghosts in where they are told is haunted areas. Horatio is just one of a large percentage of people who was set up to see ghosts in a fog.

You're making up your own stories and trying to impose your own ideas on Hamlet. I've had students in lower level lit. courses do this, offering a lot of "perhapses" and "maybes." Well, perhaps, but if you can't support it with textual and/or contextual evidence, or if your notion is refuted by the textual and contextual evidence, it is not a valid interpretation. Shakespeare goes out of his way at the beginning of the play to show that Hamlet and a bunch of other people are seeing something that is real and that looks like Hamlet Sr. Whether it is a ghost or something else is a question with which Hamlet struggles. As I mentioned in the other thread (and as FMW alluded to above), the Protestant rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory eliminated the main justification for the return of the dead. If the dead can't return from Purgatory (because it doesn't exist) and wouldn't be allowed to leave hell and wouldn't want to leave heaven, "ghosts" may very well be devilish delusions (at least to a largely Protestant audience)

Regardless, at least at the beginning of the play, there is a real entity that looks like Hamlet's father.

 

[Senex]

You're making up your own stories and trying to impose your own ideas on Hamlet. I've had students in lower level lit. courses do this, offering a lot of "perhapses" and "maybes."

Yes, the lower the the level the you taught the most likely my ideas are appropriate.

Well, perhaps, but if you can't support it with textual and/or contextual evidence, or if your notion is refuted by the textual and contextual evidence, it is not a valid interpretation. Shakespeare goes out of his way at the beginning of the play to show that Hamlet and a bunch of other people are seeing something that is real and that looks like Hamlet Sr. Whether it is a ghost or something else is a question with which Hamlet struggles. As I mentioned in the other thread (and as FMW alluded to above), the Protestant rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory eliminated the main justification for the return of the dead. If the dead can't return from Purgatory (because it doesn't exist) and wouldn't be allowed to leave hell and wouldn't want to leave heaven, "ghosts" may very well be devilish delusions (at least to a largely Protestant audience)

Regardless, at least at the beginning of the play, there is a real entity that looks like Hamlet's father.

Yes, and many people see ghosts. Hamlet's ghost is just the same kind as an everyday ghost.

Or not, who really knows.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Yes, the lower the the level the you taught the most likely my ideas are appropriate.


Yes, and many people see ghosts. Hamlet's ghost is just the same kind as an everyday ghost.

Or not, who really knows.

Like the famous Thai t-shirt says, "Same Same". We've been this route. You're projecting our sensibilities onto fictional characters. Although Shakespeare arguably brought them very much "to life", they are still fictional constructs. You can't argue, "well, educated people don't think these things" based on 21st century thinking. You have to view the characters and plot as written.

It's certainly possible to find enough to argue about (read: discuss) in Hamlet or any of the major tragedies without inventing plots that include Jack the Ripper as the stabber rather than Macbeth. Sure, it'd make nice alt dot shakespeare and I'm sure Michael Bay will get right on it, but that's not in the story nor even hinted about in the story.

When Shakespeare fills his plays with superstition and woo, it's not in a debunking or critical thinking mode at all times. He has people consulting almanacs for the best days to do things, refers to characters having been born under the auspices of certain planets, ghosts, witches, spirits, etc... he is including possibly his own but definitely his audience's (and benefactors') beliefs in the characters and stories that he's creating.

And I think that's the differing opinion here. You're enjoying projecting things onto the author and characters. Others of us are saying that those things have to be logical extrapolations, not from our own knowledge and thought processes, but from the text of the works.

 

[angrysoba]

Skeptical at first.

The soldiers already planted the exact image of Hamlet's dad in armor in Horatio's head. Horatio saw what was previously told to him by others in a fog filled alcohol fortified evening. Perhaps Horatio's mom was filled with worry about the spirit world and while bringing him up that effected Horatio's thinking. Many people see ghosts in where they are told is haunted areas. Horatio is just one of a large percentage of people who was set up to see ghosts in a fog.

Hmmm...are you being serious now?

 

[Senex]

Like the famous Thai t-shirt says, "Same Same". We've been this route.

Yes, but you haven't seen the light yet.

You're projecting our sensibilities onto fictional characters. Although Shakespeare arguably brought them very much "to life", they are still fictional constructs. You can't argue, "well, educated people don't think these things" based on 21st century thinking. You have to view the characters and plot as written.

I do.

It's certainly possible to find enough to argue about (read: discuss) in Hamlet or any of the major tragedies without inventing plots that include Jack the Ripper as the stabber rather than Macbeth.

Yeah, because I believe Horatio may have had an upbringing that made him vulnerable to the suggestion of ghosts is that the equivalent of my introducing Jack the Ripper into the plot?

When Shakespeare fills his plays with superstition and woo, it's not in a debunking or critical thinking mode at all times. He has people consulting almanacs for the best days to do things, refers to characters having been born under the auspices of certain planets, ghosts, witches, spirits, etc... he is including possibly his own but definitely his audience's (and benefactors') beliefs in the characters and stories that he's creating.

I'm saying the plots work with the ghosts being just in the minds of the characters who see them.

And I think that's the differing opinion here. You're enjoying projecting things onto the author and characters. Others of us are saying that those things have to be logical extrapolations, not from our own knowledge and thought processes, but from the text of the works.

The ghosts in Hamlet and Macbeth work just as well as being completely in the minds of the characters. That's a logical extrapolation.

Hmmm...are you being serious now?

Yes, everyone is susceptible to suggestion. People whose parents brought them up to believe in spirits make their children especially vulnerable and perhaps Horatio was particularly vulnerable. That's a logical explanation.

 

[NotJesus]

Yeah, because I believe Horatio may have had an upbringing that made him vulnerable to the suggestion of ghosts is that the equivalent of my introducing Jack the Ripper into the plot?

An exaggeration, but your argument is silly. There is nothing in the text to suggest that Horatio is susceptible to seeing ghosts. The text actually suggests the opposite. So you're simply inventing something outside the text to say "No he's susceptible after all."

 

[Senex]

An exaggeration, but your argument is silly. There is nothing in the text to suggest that Horatio is susceptible to seeing ghosts.

Except for the part where he actually believes he sees a ghost.

 

[NotJesus]

Except for the part where he actually believes he sees a ghost.

Because he actually sees a ghost.

 

[Senex]

Because he actually sees a ghost.

The story works if you believe the ghosts are real. However, it works just as well, and in my belief better, if you believe the ghosts exist solely in the mind.

 

[Lucian]

The story works if you believe the ghosts are real. However, it works just as well, and in my belief better, if you believe the ghosts exist solely in the mind.

Only if you make up your own plot details.

Yeah, because I believe Horatio may have had an upbringing that made him vulnerable to the suggestion of ghosts is that the equivalent of my introducing Jack the Ripper into the plot?

Yes, actually, it is exactly the same. Jack the Ripper is more outlandish but equally supported by the text: not at all. You have given Horatio this back story; Shakespeare has not. Shakespeare created a character who does not believe in the ghost until he sees it. Granted, if a new poster showed up in the General Skepticism and the Paranormal subforum and said, "I started out as a skeptic. When my buddies said they saw our pal's father's ghost, I didn't believe it until I saw it myself! It was really real, for sure!" we would question him. We would point out the fallibility of human perception and memory. But Hamlet isn't an Internet forum for skeptics. It's a 400-year-old play. Shakespeare does everything he can to establish the reality of the ghost without sacrificing the drama.

The soldiers in Hamlet never heard the ghost speak and only the fellows who had to take the late shift and probably were the simplest minded of the soldiers saw a ghost in armor through the fog. They were probably drinking on the job and put the whole ghost of your dad walking around at night in Hamlet's head to begin with.

Objection: assumes facts not in evidence. Again, you are making up your own play. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the soldiers are simple-minded or that they are drinking on duty. Oh, and Marcellus and Horatio do apparently* hear the ghost say "Swear" several times, as well as "Swear by his sword."



*I say "apparently" because it is always Hamlet who immediately responds to the ghost's admonitions, but Horatio says, "O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!" provoking Hamlet's response, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[Senex]

Only if you make up your own plot details.


Shakespeare does everything he can to establish the reality of the ghost without sacrificing the drama.

Perhaps this is the problem. Shakespeare does not do everything to establish the reality of the ghost. (What have you been teaching those poor students.) Does the ghost give any information to Hamlet that Hamlet has not been already considering? As I have written in a previous thread the ghost doesn't tell Hamlet "the missing key to the wine cellar is under the snow globe in my bedroom." No new information comes from the ghost. Why doesn't Gertrude see the ghost in the bedroom. Maybe it is because it is only in Hamlet's mind.

Objection: assumes facts not in evidence. Again, you are making up your own play. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the soldiers are simple-minded or that they are drinking on duty. Oh, and Marcellus and Horatio do apparently* hear the ghost say "Swear" several times, as well as "Swear by his sword."



*I say "apparently" because it is always Hamlet who immediately responds to the ghost's admonitions, but Horatio says, "O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!" provoking Hamlet's response, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Well yeah "apparently" because Hamlet is the only one who hears them.

 

[hgc]

Perhaps this is the problem. Shakespeare does not do everything to establish the reality of the ghost. (What have you been teaching those poor students.) Does the ghost give any information to Hamlet that Hamlet has not been already considering? As I have written in a previous thread the ghost doesn't tell Hamlet "the missing key to the wine cellar is under the snow globe in my bedroom." No new information comes from the ghost. Why doesn't Gertrude see the ghost in the bedroom. Maybe it is because it is only in Hamlet's mind.

Well yeah "apparently" because Hamlet is the only one who hears them.

Only Hamlet hears the ghost because Hamlet is the only one the ghost has anything to say to. The dead king wants his son to avenge his murder, as evidenced by what he says to Hamlet. There's no reason to talk to anyone else, as evidenced by him not talking to anyone else. The only reason to reveal himself to the guards and Horatio is so they'll bring Hamlet to him, as evidenced by that happening. It's the parsimonious ghost -- all business, no fluff. Your extra-textual imaginings have nothing to do with the play by Shakespeare.

 

[Senex]

Only Hamlet hears the ghost because Hamlet is the only one the ghost has anything to say to. The dead king wants his son to avenge his murder, as evidenced by what he says to Hamlet. There's no reason to talk to anyone else, as evidenced by him not talking to anyone else.

If vengeance is motivating the ghost why doesn't the ghost talk to Horatio? He's a man of action compared to Hamlet.

The only reason to reveal himself to the guards and Horatio is so they'll bring Hamlet to him, as evidenced by that happening. It's the parsimonious ghost -- all business, no fluff. Your extra-textual imaginings have nothing to do with the play by Shakespeare.

My interpretation seems more plausible than your minimalist interpretation.

 

[hgc]

If vengeance is motivating the ghost why doesn't the ghost talk to Horatio? He's a man of action compared to Hamlet.

I suppose you could go dig up WS and ask him. Short of that, not enough data to compute.

My interpretation seems more plausible than your minimalist interpretation.

You mean your made-up plot is more plausible than the plain text of the play. Got it.

 

[NotJesus]

If vengeance is motivating the ghost why doesn't the ghost talk to Horatio? He's a man of action compared to Hamlet.

Horatio a man of action??? Apart from talking to Hamlet a lot, what all does he do?

 

[Fellow Traveler]

You dig up Shakespeare and ask him if Hamlet believed in Ghosts and he says go ask Bacon.

 

[Lucian]

You dig up Shakespeare and ask him if Hamlet believed in Ghosts and he says go ask Bacon.

Oh dear.

 

[Senex]

You mean your made-up plot is more plausible than the plain text of the play. Got it.

You seem to have gotten nothing. Hamlet is experiencing an existential crisis. His dialog with ghosts no one else can hear doesn't make the ghost seem real in any way outside of Hamlet's head to me.

Horatio a man of action??? Apart from talking to Hamlet a lot, what all does he do?

Not a fan of CSI Miami I presume.

Haratio doesn't do much in the play but show up a lot however he did campaign with Hamlet's dad against Norway.



If a real ghost wanted revenge why not visit his most trusted/capable body guards who would move faster and use a less convoluted plan than his son could come up with?