SEXISM!

[rjh01]

Data? I am interested in this.

Check out ‘His Brain, Her brain’ in Scientific American April 2005. It says there are significant differences between males and female brains. This results in differences in behaviour in both animals and one day old babies that can be measured. Drugs can be given that have no effect on one gender and a significant effect on the other gender, because of the way we think.

There was another article in Scientific American that said that many Americans do not know what race they belong to. I can look this up if it is of interest.

Yes, I am a fan of Scientific American.

 

[Kiless]

Check out ‘His Brain, Her brain’ in Scientific American April 2005.

Here.

 

[CBL4]

The question is what do we do with the differences if we find them?

Certain jobs in the military require a great amount of strength. Men tend to be stronger than women. Do we:
1) Reject women from the job.
2) Create a strength test that will weed out 20% of the men and 80% of the woman?

CBL

 

[gnome]

The question is what do we do with the differences if we find them?

Certain jobs in the military require a great amount of strength. Men tend to be stronger than women. Do we:
1) Reject women from the job.
2) Create a strength test that will weed out 20% of the men and 80% of the woman?

CBL

Thank you! I've been trying for years to express this idea, and you summed it up in a few short lines.

I contend that option 1 (which you might call profiling) is the lazy way out, and option 2 is superior.

 

[billydkid]

To be honest

Honestly, I have never encountered a single person who has claimed that one gender is "better" than another. It is simply a retarded position to hold. I think the media or some people with an agenda have created the notion that this kind of thought is prevalent in this society. I would claim that it is virtually nonexistant.

 

[CapelDodger]

Really? I would question this [We are usually more attracted to our own race]. Anything to back this up?

In my pubertous days the utterly gorgeous Vietnamese women I saw on the news almost ruined me for the home-grown variety. I pretty much assumed that's why the Americans were there. So that's evidence against.

The long-ago Kirk and Uhura kiss notwithstanding, it still seems that in American TV-land people of colour and people of pallor pair up correspondingly. This may give some people a misleading impression.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: To be honest

Honestly, I have never encountered a single person who has claimed that one gender is "better" than another. It is simply a retarded position to hold. I think the media or some people with an agenda have created the notion that this kind of thought is prevalent in this society. I would claim that it is virtually nonexistant.

I have often come across people who most certainly have an opinion on the roles appropriate to genders, and value-judgements that extol the qualities relevant to male roles far higher than those relevant to female. When a man claims the natural right to make any important decision in a partnership, he may not be explicitly claiming to be "better" but what else can it mean? When an aristocracy does the same to commoners, or a dominant race to a subordinate, we see it as a claim to be "better" than them. Why not in this case?

 

[CapelDodger]

Data? I am interested in this.

Thanks to rjh01 and Kiless for references, I'm not much good for those. I read SciAm, Science, lots of books, more recently the InterNet, I absorb stuff but have little recollection of where it came from. As a bloke I'm naturally more analytically skilled than a woman, so you're better off trusting me than trying to absorb it all yourself ...

 

[CapelDodger]

Perhaps, but I've certainly not seen enough of these studies, let alone "many".

Where would you expect to see them? Do you seek out this information, or has it not cropped up on your local news-outlets? "Study finds no racial mental differences" doesn't command headlines, study does find such differences is controversial and does command headlines. "Study finds gender differences" does command headlines, or at least a single-digit page-number, and there are indeed plenty of such stories in the mainstream media.

Besides, when there are numerous studies about the appearance of disease W among the people of race X and about how the genetic background of the race Y makes syndrome Z much more probable, I find it difficult to accept that the brain would be like the only organ not affected by race. Not that I expect a superiority or inferiority of a certain race, but I'm pretty sure that certain differences between races could be discovered. Some people may have better spatial intelligence, others will be better with words, etc. But it is also quite probable that mixing of races will eliminate such differences before we have a chance to discover them.

Susceptibility to disease as a group characteristic is no different from skin-colour as a group characterisitic. There is no connection between either and mental function. Susceptibility to disease can depend on just a few alleles being more common in one population than another, purely due to genetic drift because there is little selection pressure involved. Check out these studies and you'll notice that most of them involve minor diseases, and where a major disease like malaria is concerned - high selection pressure - it givs rise to major differences like sickle-cell.

Skin-colour is selected for entirely separately from any mental selection that's going on. So is lactose-tolerance and any number of other things. What is it that is going to lead to different selection pressures on mental functions in different races that will lead to different outcomes? The mix of personality-types that has served us so well as a species over the last few hundred thousand years did so because it was flexible and adaptable, not because it evolved to fit each new niche it encountered.

 

[Tmy]

The question is what do we do with the differences if we find them?

Certain jobs in the military require a great amount of strength. CBL

Like what?

 

[ma1ic3]

Really? I would question this. Anything to back this up?

Nope. Just an observation. I was thinking of the attraction between whites, blacks, mexicans and orientals.

As for the rest of your argument, well, that is my point. We are biased.

My point was that there are two kinds of biases that shouldn't be confused with each other. Sexism is irrational, but not all biases all, not all biases are based on belief.

And we can't know we're biased, nor to what extent, truly, now can we?

I think it's possible. But I think it may be impossible for us to not be persuaded by them from time to time. They are much easier to recognize than they are to avoid indefinitely.

So if we all have a sexual bias, is the equality of the sexes an achievable goal?

Well... I'll never treat a man the same in bed as a women. I'll definitely always hold onto that sexual bias.

 

[ma1ic3]

Like what?

Becoming a Navy SEAL is pretty tough. A lot of people drop out of training because they can't handle it. Just to get into the training part you have to meet these requirements:


From: HowStuffWorks

Entering training to become a Navy SEAL is voluntary. Anyone can volunteer, and officers and enlisted men train side by side. In order to enter SEAL training, however, they do have to meet certain requirements. Those wishing to volunteer for SEAL training have to:

*be an active-duty member of the U.S. Navy
*be a man (women aren't allowed to be Navy SEALs)
*be 28 or younger (although waivers for 29- and 30-year-olds are possible)
*have good vision -- at least 20/40 in one eye and 20/70 in the other (corrective surgery is also possible)
*be a U.S. citizen
*pass the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB)

*Pass a stringent physical screening test that includes the following procedure:
1.swim 500 yards in 12.5 minutes or less, followed by a 10-minute rest
2.do 42 push-ups in under two minutes, followed by a two-minute rest
3 do 50 sit-ups in under two minutes, followed by a two-minute rest
4.do six pull-ups, followed by a 10-minute rest
5. run 1.5 miles in boots and long pants in less than 11.5 minutes

Once a potential SEAL qualifies for training, the real fun starts.

 

[El Greco]

Where would you expect to see them? Do you seek out this information, or has it not cropped up on your local news-outlets?

I would expect to see a list here, for one. Do you have any links for some among the many studies you've seen ?

Skin-colour is selected for entirely separately from any mental selection that's going on. So is lactose-tolerance and any number of other things. What is it that is going to lead to different selection pressures on mental functions in different races that will lead to different outcomes

I certainly don't follow your logic here. Yoy accept that skin color and the appearance of diseases can be race-dependent, but this can't happen with mental qualities ? Are you aware that several mental illnesses are more common in certain ethnic groups (eg schizophrenia: important step taken toward the identification of schizophrenia genes) ? Why would mental abilities be any different ?

And where have I said that there is a biological connection between skin-color and mental function ? It is localization and drawing from a common pool gene that would promote the appearance of certain mental characteristics, not the skin color or the race.

 

[rjh01]

The question is what do we do with the differences if we find them?

Certain jobs in the military require a great amount of strength. Men tend to be stronger than women. Do we:
1) Reject women from the job.
2) Create a strength test that will weed out 20% of the men and 80% of the woman?

How about option 3 or 4?
3) Have a look at the job. Does a major part of the job really require a great amount of [physical] strength? Can the job be redesigned so not to require strength? If so then, the entry requirements need to change.
4) Redesign some tests so that women can do these tests better than men can [Like how?].

 

[CBL4]

Orginally posted by rjh01[/i]
How about option 3 or 4?

They are just clarifications of number 2. Implicit in my statement is that the test should accurately represent the strength needed on the job. If a job can be made easier, it should be whether or not women are doing. If the test is inaccurate, it should be fixed.

CBL

 

[CapelDodger]

I would expect to see a list here, for one. Do you have any links for some among the many studies you've seen ?

Afraid not.

I certainly don't follow your logic here. Yoy accept that skin color and the appearance of diseases can be race-dependent, but this can't happen with mental qualities ?

The difference is the element of selection. Populations encounter differing amounts of sunlight and different diseases in different regions, so there are selection pressures. What would be the selection pressures that led to different mental abilities and personality types? Human societies are remarkably similar, over time and region, at the family and village level. Humans come in a mix of abilities and personality types, but they're all represented everywhere in much the same mix. Human success as a species comes from group behaviour (it has been said that to study one human is not to study a human at all). It provides us with the flexibility to populate a vast range of environments without having to evolve a new mental toolbox for each one.

The gene-pool doesn't just come with "the race" (which is a dubious concept in it self) by chance. If there is significant variance between populations it's because of selection; the gene-pool makes "the race".

Are you aware that several mental illnesses are more common in certain ethnic groups (eg schizophrenia: important step taken toward the identification of schizophrenia genes) ?

I'm aware of the controversy over differential diagnosis of schizophrenia in different ethnic groups in Western countries. Sorry, no link. This is the sort of story that does make the mainstream, though - stories to do with race and science generally do, unless they're of the "study shows no difference" (yawn!) type.

And where have I said that there is a biological connection between skin-color and mental function ? It is localization and drawing from a common pool gene that would promote the appearance of certain mental characteristics, not the skin color or the race.

I was drawing an analogy, not attributing anything to you. As for the rest, see above. The common gene pool would not be trimmed of its mental components unless there was selection pressure to change behaviour.

 

[Earthborn]

Certain jobs in the military require a great amount of strength. Men tend to be stronger than women. Do we:
1) Reject women from the job.
2) Create a strength test that will weed out 20% of the men and 80% of the woman?

A few years ago I saw a documentary (sorry, don't remember the title and I haven't been able to find anything about it on the web) where as an experiment some fit but ordinary women were trained in a similar way as some elite military corps (could be Navy SEALS or whatever) to see whether women could be up to the task. It was only a small group of women, but almost all of them passed the test that is normally only passed only by a minority of the men who apply for it.

The scientists who conducted the experiment also presented a possible explanation. They pointed out that it is often not the men who are strongest who pass, because it is mainly an endurance test. Many men who apply are very strong because they spend much of their time in the gym, but they often have trained away their body fat. It is those men who likely fail because they have too little reserves to endure the training for a long time. The ones who pass are the men who have lots of muscle and quite a bit of body fat as well. The documentary also showed that food rations have been changed to include more fat because of this knowledge.

Women tend to have a higher percentage of body fat, it is because of this, it was argued, that so many women managed to succeed. Strong men are usually superior to strong women when it comes to explosive strength, the ability to release a lot of force in a relatively short time, but the experiment seemed to suggest that strong women are better at enduring strength because on average they have more fat reserves. And that is apperently the kind of strength necessary in the military.

It was only a small sample of women who participated and the experiment may not have been as scientific as one would hope for. But the result seemed to suggest that maybe women are more capable than men to perform in the military. At the very least it casts doubt on the rationality of a blanket prohibition of one sex to apply.

Perhaps the reason why women are traditionally excluded from military service is not because they are less capable, but because the intricacies of human reproduction just makes men seen as more expendable.

 

[Tmy]

Becoming a Navy SEAL is pretty tough. A lot of people drop out of training because they can't handle it. Just to get into the training part you have to meet these requirements:

Entering training to become a Navy SEAL is voluntary. Anyone can volunteer, and officers and enlisted men train side by side. In order to enter SEAL training, however, they do have to meet certain requirements. Those wishing to volunteer for SEAL training have to:

*be an active-duty member of the U.S. Navy
*be a man (women aren't allowed to be Navy SEALs)
*be 28 or younger (although waivers for 29- and 30-year-olds are possible)
*have good vision -- at least 20/40 in one eye and 20/70 in the other (corrective surgery is also possible)
*be a U.S. citizen
*pass the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB)

*Pass a stringent physical screening test that includes the following procedure:
1.swim 500 yards in 12.5 minutes or less, followed by a 10-minute rest
2.do 42 push-ups in under two minutes, followed by a two-minute rest
3 do 50 sit-ups in under two minutes, followed by a two-minute rest
4.do six pull-ups, followed by a 10-minute rest
5. run 1.5 miles in boots and long pants in less than 11.5 minutes

Once a potential SEAL qualifies for training, the real fun starts.

Hmmm yeah thats the invented requirements on BECOMING a seal. But what do they have to do with BEING a SEAL. I cant imagine that in the middle of a seal rescue mission you are really going to need to do 50 situps in 2 minutes.

take your local police department. I bet they have stringent physical requirements in oder to join. But once you're in. ITS ALL DONUTS AND SITTING ON YOUR ASS!!!

Not to say there are not military jobs that require physical stregnth. BUt I bet they make up a mere fraction of all the total jobs.

 

[ma1ic3]

Hmmm yeah thats the invented requirements on BECOMING a seal. But what do they have to do with BEING a SEAL. I cant imagine that in the middle of a seal rescue mission you are really going to need to do 50 situps in 2 minutes.

LOL, no kidding. The sit ups, just as it states, are part of the physical screening test. They make you do a lot of stuff that you won't be doing in a mission, because they only want people who can handle a lot of physical stress and discomfort to be able to join.

 

[Tmy]

LOL, no kidding. The sit ups, just as it states, are part of the physical screening test. They make you do a lot of stuff that you won't be doing in a mission, because they only want people who can handle a lot of physical stress and discomfort to be able to join.

Same goes for a football team. But its not really neccessary to have your feild goal kicker run a 4.2 in the 40, or have your wide receivers bench press 400lbs.